Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Buffy # 16 Issue Discussion Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> Comics Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1423

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, everyone here has heard me say that all opinions are welcome as long as they don't break the forum rules, but this is getting out of hand. This board is a place to discuss and celebrate the relationship of Buffy and Angel. It's not a complaint box, a battleground, or a psychiatric ward.

"Don't like it, don't read it" is a completely sensible outlook that accounts for most of the absent voices here. Even fans who do read the comics aren't necessarily going to feel like talking about them, let alone produce fanfiction and graphics. This is not a loyalty issue. Joss Whedon and everyone involved owes us one thing every two weeks: a good story with good art. We owe them one thing in return: four dollars. If they break their side of the bargain, we call it off. Yeah, it's impersonal. Yeah, you're passionate about these characters because they mean a lot to you. But this is the reality of this situation, and if you can't shrug off the loss of something we used to have and move the hell on, you can at least respect those who have.

And for that matter, not having the time or inclination to participate in fandom is an actual thing. For all you know, some of our former members are jobless and lost their internet access. Or they're busy taking care of a sick family member. Or they're hard at work writing what will become your favorite book in a few years. Do you really want to ignore all of these possibilities and go straight to calling them lazy?

I don't know the ages of anyone here, but you're all being held to adult standards. That means being civil to each other and educating yourselves on the board's rules. This is the first place that people from all over the Buffyverse fandom come when they want to know what "Bangels" are up to. When they see us at each others' throats, cussing out the creative team that brought us this show in the first place, and wishing all of the secondary characters dead, what kind of impression of us do you think they're going to come away with?

Everyone here is free to disagree with each other to your hearts' content, but when you start to get angry about someone else's point of view, you're reacting to something over which you have no control. Take a breather. Come back and try to persuade, because you have no right to demand. The other fans here aren't doing it wrong. The other fans who aren't here aren't doing it wrong. Spuffies aren't doing it wrong. There is no way to do it wrong.

If you believe in the B/A fandom enough to want to save it, GREAT.
Show us what you got. If it's nothing but ranting and accusations, though, you're not doing us or B/A any favors. I would rather be part of a dead ship than a laughingstock.
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think, the more I'm convinced that Spuffy in season 10 it's connected to the book. It may have been Clem to write into the Vampyr Book? Clem actually wrote something in the book "Unicorns are totally real" and this happens in issue 10. Spuffy thing starts in the next issue just after Harmony and Clem leave SF. Clem is Spike's friend so I suppose he wants to see him happy with the slayer, and he expressed this desire in front of the book open...
_________________

"I just know that when you're around, whether I see you or not, I feel you. Inside."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are the moderator, KAIROS. You have stated that we are to celebrate Buffy and Angel.

I CATEGORICALLY DO NOT BELIEVE MY “DOLLAR CONTRIBUTION” IS TO BE COUNTED AS MY “FINAL ANSWER” or VOTE ever!

YOU may believe that Citizen’s United and the Koch brothers get to decide the shape of participation that is allowed to be discussed, but then you (YOURSELF!) “turn about” and CHASTISE this very notion that willing participants just might not be able to access the internet or purchase comics, but may try to “hobble” along, as I have done, with sacrifice and unwillingness to make sacrifice—as I did explain to Cheryl my “less than stellar” reading of these comics, but I still had the same dedication and fervor of all these “celebrants” Dark Star provided a forum, and do feel that NARRATIVELY, I DON’T find ANYTHING TO CELEBRATE that isn’t retcon, failure of narrative, and simply NOT THE STORY PROMISED. “Suspension of belief” is not the requirement to HAVE TO: “ACCEPT SUBSTITUTES.”

I also give people of another language a hugely wide berth when it comes to the use of American slang. The enthusiasm of feeling in a cliché form of expression can pack more whollop than a non native speaker may realize—just as my personal feelings, with male based mythologies, itself is an offense to people who feel such faiths are their reality.

I have NOT attacked ANYONE. I DO NOT CELEBRATE this story and my PARTICIPATION IS IN MY RIGHT TO NOT LIKE IT FOR NARRATIVE REASONS. NOT buying comics. Not buying INTO these comics.

I do not question that Cheryl has eternal faith in Joss or in the rendering of the story he (initially?) created and I merely asked “show me” WITHIN THE NARRATIVE. I stated that this is not a “flip” of Cangel in all its attributes, no matter how much Fred knows about string theory or picked “the muscle” and then “the other muscle” to become a time lord, trying to fit into a body, just as Dru’s mind is beyond her body because she is also a time lord—as I have always stated: she is not insane. She experiences time “all at once.”

THIS STORY I have found a complete BETRAYAL of the story I signed on to see. And, that is NOT even B/A! It is adulthood/actualization—even if I ACCEPT the premise of the metaphor of death/change. Joss himself said that she dies or the world dies and that is Buffy’s tragedy. Well, I don’t see that as “tragedy”—that is “the point” and I am glad for the prophecies, which are the implied promises that Buffy actually achieves “normal” and Angel, his self acutalization in “shanshu.” I PREFER they achieve both THROUGH EACH OTHER. Obviously, my hope towards season eight but completely WTF after After the Fall, showed Angel actually face “the cost” of “saving them all” versus Buffy’s new army to “kill them all”—obviously a “connecting reversal” to Buffy/Angel’s outlooks in their first days.

I have categorically stated that any forward motion in this story making yet another VAMPIRE okay, is simply not what Buffy’s “love life” actually showed. She tried to date humans. They have not been “appropritate” because she herself is indeed “cookie dough.”

THAT to me was the big “sign post” as the continued “proof” toward her approach of becoming, to achieving “normal,” in her real life efforts to comprehend herself AND the “other” in a world that just may be a self-created perception. Which does not mean bedding any and all “ensouled” vampires that come down the pike.

ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL THE PROBLEMS of vampires has BEEN ADDRESSED: Immortal. Sterile. Feed on LIFE. And that isn’t “just sex.” It makes her too stupid and self-hating to root for, whatever Spike’s “journey” is dithering about.

And need I even bring up that “dead people” became ADULTS or were described as adults we mostly don’t see? So HANK within this “new rules” universe? Another leaky dimensional portal/ alternative universe “alcoholic haze” to “match Faith’s “bad daddy” and Joss’s need to kill off yet another daddy or “turn them evil?”



We have been clearly shown (now) that Angel’s desire for ‘perfect peace’ for all to know ONLY “pure true love/paradise” is extreme, as is Buffy’s belief the “world is hell”. (Season 6).

“Joss”/Xander threw down a “thread” into the great hole (vagina/abyss/divine feminine) holding Buffy/Dawn to “birth themselves”/pull themselves out that Buffy herself can be (creatrix)/“know what to see” that the world ALSO holds its potential and beauty that are intrinsic to life itself.

And trust me, I do recall a lot of people resented the heck out of a male making it possible for Buffy to save herself when she can literally jump buildings at a single bound (and now fly MANY roads of the astral plane) when some spirit moves her.

The fact that Mr. Gage has made Buffy “the mature one” in a “world of spells that mostly MEAN no action or choice or consequence moved TIME; and yet another VAMPIRE makes Buffy happy or maybe is “too new” or is the same as Angel; or holds meaning itself, does not assuage me in the structure of the implied promises Joss Whedon himself made in the story structure. I HOLD JOSS ACCOUNTABLE to the things he puts his Name On. HE said that he takes that seriously.

I DO NOT accept that A MATURE person whose story is being told with regard to “becoming” (which actually means TIME moves forward for a MORTAL being) can ALSO suddenly create this “magical space of new rules-reality” that puts Dawn at the age of high school/freshman of college aka 18. Dawn’s appearance at 14 was at the END of season 4, which made Buffy “magically”—mind wipes and “sun stopping” et al included—at least 18-9—or, around four years apart. THAT makes her 22. Well, all that stuff of seasons 5 through 9 happened HOW?

And then there is Connor in the same universe. Who showed up from Quortoth at around 17 and he went to college by season 5. So HE ALSO is now around 22? That is the math I can’t reconcile.

You have also stated that Buffy IS your avatar. THAT is precisely the sort of iconography I have railed against as being “the point” in what has now transpired in JOSS WHEDON’S story. Does that make me less loyal and “celebratory” to B/A than you—even if the MEANING of it is totally different than yours or any other fan?

I have asked questions from THE STORY and have NOT ATTACKED PEOPLE. But I am thoroughly disquieted that the “judgment” of the mythical others on the internet silences strong opinion on the PRODUCTION of PUBLIC PERSONS and/or the individual visions each fan may hold on the CONTENT and MEANING TO THEM.

I hear people actually say “Obama is an idiot.” And he is a real person, who is actually very intelligent with all sorts of “proof on the page.”

Wishing a character to “just die” may be “character bashing,” but NO LIVING HUMAN BEING HAS BEEN touched or harmed, other than by their own REACTIONS and OPINIONS from which grief, anger, joy ALL may occur: THE POINT of literature that has any scope in 1. Connection to experience and sharing of it 2. Meaning, personally or in the world. (If anyone thinks “one” can’t change the world, sleep with a mosquito).

I do believe that humans ARE human because WE MAKE ART in any obviously “uncaring” universe. That “personifications” of the universe are made in the scope of religious dogma and artistic license/expression is part of that ART. That I do believe Joss Whedon began with a story, gave it dramatic structure and a “reality” we accept through suspension of specific kinds of perception, and that he gave us metaphors on which to stand in order to have some predictive sense toward “satisfaction” that is part of the nature of “truth” in a “web of lies” of a story, e.g. the “prophecy”—has been violated TO ME in that Buffy’s MATURITY aka “Becoming” IS the story I see as adulthood—and even Joss himself said, either she dies or the world does and that is her tragedy—(while Angel’s redemption is Self-Actualization aka “shanshu”) Buffy’s supposed maturity that SHE CHOOSES is a great sudden swing having NO MEANING, as neither VAMPIRE is appropriate—but it is Angel who was “promised” the prophecy. Not Spike, even if I think he did shanshu in season 7 “but for” that W&H necklace. My “proof” is that Spike Existed (soul) but he needed a “body” to have any EFFECT on this dimension called REALITY.

Further, I stated that Angel was a NUMBER, aka FIRST because HE IS ‘’PAST’”—not “’ex,’” , which does not deny MARRIAGE actually occurred nor the acceptance of “complication” nor the notion of “’I have and ALWAYS WILL”’ love Angel, in a “universe” of only TWO ensouled vampires-that to me says a. there is first and b. there is second—and the second for anyone “becoming” is “okay” to compare to stories e.g. Cangel (that never happened), but done under some “new rules” universe, which makes ZERO sense for this SUDDEN maturity of “sameness” between the two vampires—she wishes to touch and protect—while also “saying” SHE BELONGS TO NEITHER.

Well, Mr. Gage did a great job in recognizing Buffy does indeed belong to herself and has ALSO CHOSEN, yet he also RETCONNED every moment of B/A that EVER happened, as it occurred under “magical circumstance.”

1. Willow’s restoration of the soul? Underworld and dimensional portal.
2. IWRY. “Mohra Blood” and a “time eddy” that is erased, except EVERYONE knows about it EXCEPT Buffy.
3. Twilight? An originating god using time to find his parents for a PHYSICAL reality, but executed under “The glow.” EXACLY as Spuffy has said.

I thought that the unchosen “chosen” is why Buffy is accepting slayerhood extreme versus the “woman” of “normal”—and her struggle to “internalize the slayer” that must exist to be an actualized adult? Season 5 is my narrative proof (that was to end the series if UPN failed to pick it up) that Buffy INTERNALIZED all her lessons and died, leaving the “real Buffy”-normal girl DAWN. Same idea holds for Angel/Connor shanshu. HOWEVER, I wrote and lost a novel reversing this in favor of B/A having “normal” and “shanshu” because I DO NOT WANT BUFFY AS AN AVATAR. Even if I am forced to agree that is what she became.

I also have categorically stated what magicks are for and how they work according to Wiccan /Druidic principles, which supposedly, Willow embraces, along with certain “fundamentals” common to all myths. Free will/desire is given the practice of self understanding toward transformation. This may be true in religion and scientific exploration in that which may lie beyond the self and where do I come from, inclusive of asking if there are things like truth or meaning?

In THIS narrative, that is called the ACTION, whether the “good” has positive or negative consequences on any and all from a very PARTITCULAR P.O.V. and Buffy made a CHOICE, that NARRATIVELY was started in season eight on a STATEMENT explaining a dream that: Buffy herself CANNOT see “the difference.” Really? Demon essence and souls and DNA—but nothing that creates UNIQUE “PERSON?” I do admit I can’t tell you “where” consciousness comes from, other than “belief” it does exist.

I also asked where are the “answers” within the narrative that deal with the reality that NO MORE POTENTIALS can be called—Buffy did that—and the reality of two slayer lines, which STILL exists and yet “balance” extremes aren’t a problem, even though FRAY IS A SLAYER—how? Some vampire, say Spike-with-a-soul, suddenly births a female human with a little help from time lord Dru? Jaysus.

Shutting up.
Enjoy being you, youse guys!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1423

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sybil, I find your presence here both valuable and delightful, and I would hate to see any less of you. That said, your reaction to my warning post was inflammatory, and you need to tone it down. This is not negotiable.

If you don't want to pay for the comics you read, that's not my business. If you want a writer to change his story based on nothing but your strong opinions about it, you'll see how well that works out. If you want to enjoy B/A without the comics, there are two self-contained TV shows for that, and ten other subfora on this board that could use a little more activity. If the show isn't enough, how did you end up here in the first place?

Don't act like you're being silenced by our rules. Different views have always been welcome here no matter how wild or isolated. Negative and accusatory language is not. You may not feel like you're attacking people, but the way a disagreement escalates will speak for itself.

This goes for everyone, and I hope it's the last I have to say about it.
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The more I think, the more I'm convinced that Spuffy in season 10 it's connected to the book. It may have been Clem to write into the Vampyr Book? Clem actually wrote something in the book "Unicorns are totally real" and this happens in issue 10. Spuffy thing starts in the next issue just after Harmony and Clem leave SF. Clem is Spike's friend so I suppose he wants to see him happy with the slayer, and he expressed this desire in front of the book open...


I'm guessing "the book" is in some way responsible for every single thing that's happened this season. We've seen things become reality after someone has written in the book....like you said, the unicorn..and Dracula's big change. So we know for certain that writing in the book can change reality. But we've also seen that just wanting something bad enough can also change reality....and in a pretty big way. Vampires that can shape shift and walk in daylight, and Billy being accepted by the first slayer. Which means there are two ways in which reality can be changed under the new magic.

Almost every character has considered writing in the book and all have at one time or another been around it....but what if none of them have written in it? They all seem to be very cautious of what gets written because of the monkey paw effect. What if instead of anyone having to actually write in the book, the book is like an antenna that is picking up everyone's wants and wishes and acting on them? Neither Billy or the new vampires were anywhere close to the book and yet both got what they wished for. So that means the book somehow tuned into those wishes from a distance. Billy was in a whole different city wasn't he? Santa Rosita or something...not sure how far that is supposed to be from San Francisco but I think it shows just how powerful the book really is. And if the book can pick up on Billy's wishes from far away, then how many other wishes has the book tuned into....and from how many diffeerent people?

Maybe "be careful what you wish for" is really the big bad this season...especially if everyone's wishes are being fullilled at the same time and don't jive up with everyone elses wishes. Just a thought I started entertaining after Willow said that magic was being unravelled and restrung constantly.

We saw Spikes wish, and it seems to be coming true, but maybe it wasn't his first wish. Maybe before wishing over the book he wished that Buffy would think of him more favorably or think of him the way she thinks of Angel. Perhaps Spike has even wished to be more like Angel. Has Spike wished to be accepted by the Scoobies? And could that be why he's now part of the family? Or why Buffy thinks he wasn't so bad souless? Sure would explain a lot of craziness this season.

And I know I can get a little crazy with my speculations, but going forward from that thought made me think of Andrew and his atempt to bring Tara back by doing a spell over the book. He was stopped, but I wonder if he still thinks about it. Like maybe, "I wish I could have finished the spell before Willow found me"...."I really wanted to bring Tara back"..yada, yada, yada. I don't know...but it wouldn't surprise me if Tara comes back at the end of the season.....or if Ghost Anya wasn't the result of Xander's nostolgic thoughts of her and maybe even wishing she were still around to talk to him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and then there's the line "Buffy's dad is worse than soulless Spike" (who personally made me angry more than anything else, even more than Spuffy) and now Hank Summers will appear (I don't remember in which issue). This could be a wish to Buffy and Dawn and it's in tune with "We're family." One thing is certain, the Big Bad isn't Archaeus but the unconscious wishes of protagonists. Surely the dreams and the wishes are an important part of the season and is also a subplot in A&F.



I wonder what happened to Dylan, she just is disappeared into thin air.

...However, if this theory turns out to be true, it would be a cruelty for Spuffies, and I don't see Gage doing this, especially after all the accusations leveled at him for Spike/Harmony thing. DH (and Gage) has too much fear of the reaction of the fans, so this theory could be totally out of line.

sybil, Connor is roughly 24 years old. I think now he graduated, last year he was attending the last year of college.
_________________

"I just know that when you're around, whether I see you or not, I feel you. Inside."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
comic fan
Oracle


Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 1806

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my copy of Buffy # 16,Part I of "Old Demons." on Friday.

Overall I liked the issue.I of course enjoyed the B/A interaction and how it was handled.I also liked how the Angel/Buffy/Spike stuff was done.As well as the scenes with the other scoobies.Archaeus controlling portals raises the threat level beyond his impact on Angel and Spike so that at least gave a little more meat to the baddie.

Pretty satisfied with the first part of the crossover.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
comic fan
Oracle


Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 1806

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-review/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-10-16-dark-horse-comics

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10 #16

by Greg McElhatton, Reviewer

As "Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10" rumbles on, the book has hit a logical point where a guest appearance by Angel can happen. With Christos Gage and Rebekah Isaacs as the former creative team on "Angel & Faith," the duo takes time to not only have a fun comic waiting for readers, but also follow up a tiny bit on the events of those issues.

The reborn Giles has been a major part of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10" for so long, it's easy to forget that the quest to bring him back took place in the original run of "Angel & Faith." As a result, we get some nice little touches, like Angel's regret on how it didn't work out quite as planned, and Giles' asking about Faith. At the same time, though, it doesn't distract from the bigger plots involving Archaeus or Buffy and Spike's relationship.

It's that relationship that, in many ways, dominates the book (even as they rally against Archaeus) and, so far, Gage takes it at a good pace. Getting the two of them back together is certainly going to upset some fans while delighting others, and I like that it doesn't feel like Gage is rushing into them being a couple once more. The little hesitant moments between them (as well as around Angel) feel natural. It also helps to distract from the fact that Archaeus still doesn't feel quite in "big bad" territory just yet; with some future encounters that might change but, for the moment, he hardly feels like the foe that our cast needs to worry about. With strong character interactions and dynamics, though, there's more than enough to compensate.

Isaacs's art and Dan Jackson's colors are pleasant as ever. Some of the little reaction shots here are especially strong, like Angel's wide-eyed stare when he sees Buffy and Spike holding hands; you can almost see the rest of his body rearing back in surprise. Similarly, his stony-faced "It's fine" at the bottom of the next page is sold as much by the cold look in his eyes as it is by Gage's dialogue. The demonic attack in the hallway is well-handled; Isaacs understands quite well how to handle motion in a medium that, at its core, is static and -- from Buffy whipping the scythe around to the poisonous bolts shooting out of the demon's tail -- the entire sequence feels fast-paced and furious.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10" #16 is another solid installment from a series that performs well. Gage and Isaacs clearly aren't done with Angel's arrival as a bit of a turbulence for Buffy and Spike's new relationship and, considering how well previous relationship drama has been in this current series, we've got some fun times ahead. The "Season 10" issues are, once again, proving to be the most consistently good of the post-series "Buffy" comics to date. Keep up the good work, everyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ares
Forum Ghost
Moderator


Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 2476
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info on the latest edition of the Buffy mag. I like that the writers and artists seem to catch the essence of Angel, his character, his demeanour. It's good to know.

The getting back together of Spike and Buffy? Having not read any of the comics for the last couple of years, I cannot comment on the reasons why. But I suppose, what with Angel and Faith having their own comic, this should come as no surprise that the PsTB would want another slayer/vampire pairing, if only as a reboot.

Okay, sorry, I suppose that was a comment.

And please, this is in no way a Spike/Buffy bash. I am philosophical about the whole pairing thing now. If the comics want to pair Angel with someone that isn't Buffy I will feel the same way.

Ares
_________________
"Been playing a little Ahab."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ares Very Happy it's good to see you here... I just wanted tell you hi and I'm glad reading again your thoughts ...just like the old days. Heart
_________________

"I just know that when you're around, whether I see you or not, I feel you. Inside."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ares
Forum Ghost
Moderator


Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 2476
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*waves to Janas*

Hi to you too. Sorry it's been a while.

I had been lurking, on and off, and not posting. Bad Ares.

Love you back.
Heart

Ares
_________________
"Been playing a little Ahab."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> Comics Forum All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group