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As a Bangel fan, does Spuffy threaten you?
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Are you threatened by Spuffy?
Yes
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
No
76%
 76%  [ 35 ]
It's complicated
21%
 21%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 46

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janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:
..I've analyzed it in every way possible, and everytime I come to the conclusion that the point of Cangel is even less than Spuffy's. At least Spuffy didn't get entirely sweeped under the rug like C/A was. It even toyed with the possibility of a relationship more as well as a conflict for Buffy in the love triangle.

I agree with this, but for reasons different from yours. In reality, Spuffy is sweeped under the rug, try asking to Spuffies if they are happy of ATS5, AFT or season nine of Buffy ..however, Spuffy of season six, had sense. They wanted to describe the existential void, they wanted to describe the alienation of living without love, and Spuffy had exactly this function. They managed to perfectly describe the disgust and anguish. Cangel instead? Honestly, what led to the show? They wanted to hurt to Angel? they wanted to create the basics of drama in the fourth season? Well, they would have achieved the same result without putting on the farce of the third season. Angel loved already Cordy as a friend, it was not necessary to go beyond. Cordy Mary Sue in the third season was something that it could not watch. They tried to create a Cordelia similar to Buffy, but have failed miserably.
Quote:
Cangel had none of this. No love triangle conflict, no serious relationship potential. Nothing. It was over before it even started. And with all the S3-S4 emphasis, there's me going 'Why?'.

Umm, there was a love triangle as big as a house. The most squalid of love triangles. Angel/Cordelia/Connor.
Quote:
Um ... I love Angel to bits, but I have to say I'm saying 'yes'. Except I don't think that that puts in a terrible light because he wasn't even in a relationship with Cordelia, he could do whatever he wanted with anyone if he liked. There's really no need for anyone to be offended by his quick flirting and kiss with Buffy. Angel was in love with two people at that time, he had no girlfriend. Buffy suddenly kisses him. Established as one of the women he loves. Really think he's gonna turn that down, even if he loves another person too? Bet he would do the same if that was Cordelia (In fact, he would. As Your Welcome proves)

We can't be in love with two people, when this happens I would say that there is a problem and also very big. Your Welcome does not prove anything. Has been Cordelia to kissing Angel and she had a reason to do so. She had to give the visions at Angel, as did Doyle (who was also present in the episode and its presence wasn't causal) ..now I wonder, who kissed Doyle before meeting Angel? Smile
Quote:
*Healthy: Know each other well, understand each other, always happy together, trust each other, support each other.
*Realistic: Developed, mature.
*Beautiful: See above.

you look Angel happy when he saw Cordelia in bed with his son? ..and this leads to a question. Angel and Cordelia they know better to each other than anyone else, right? Then how the hell did Angel, to don't understand that wasn't Cordelia? How did he believe possible, that Cordelia could act that way? Or isn't at all true that knows it well, or he believes that she can do things like that. But however it want to put, I don't see neither friendship, nor trust, nor love. These three elements belong only to Buffy and Angel ..friendship ..loyalty ..and the heart ..Well, you know..
Quote:
janas wrote:
Morever, Joss didn't want the prescence of Cordelia in After the Fall., that was an idea by Brian Lynch. So I can easily ignore that line.

So that was what Joss didn't want in it Cordelia-related? I thought for sure it was the dragon. Well, that makes me feel a little better. It also just reinforced that Joss really doesn't take C/A seriously. It wasn't even intended to be in Your Welcome at first. Wow, Cangel is just so forgotten now ..

The idea of the dragon was an idea of Joss ..and doesn't escape me the irony to call him by the name Cordelia's, as I found it ironic (and even a little shabby) when Angel asked at Connor to mount (to ride) the dragon together. Connor refused because he prefers to "mount" alone Smile Obviously it was a reference to the devilish triangle of the fourth season, and there was also a reference to the relationship Cordy and Groo (Groo and Connor are the only ones who know the name of the dragon) ..and anyway, how much it can be romantic to call the dragon "Cordy?" ..it's as if he had given the name of the woman he loves at the his car or his bike ..but this is Joss. He didn't want the presence of Cordelia as a incorporeal entity ..and I very hated the Claddagh ring presence between Angel and Cordelia in a cover of ATF, but there was also Doyle, maybe the ring was there for him?

oh, and sorry for my bad English Embarassed Rolling Eyes
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RomancexGirl
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Joined: 05 May 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

I guess that's the difference between us - I have no need to repress the existence because for me the story quite handily dealt with C/A and made it irrelevant. Spuffy WAS swept away, not under a rug but trust me, if you'd been around at the time, you'd have seen how angry Spuffy fans were because of the treatment of Spuffy in season 7. Many have managed to fanwank it to being the best thing EVAH since then but it simply doesn't hold up for most people who don't ship it or for those who did and didn't talk themselves into loving what happened with it.


You're right about Spuffy. It's never really swept under a rug like C/A was, but it is frequently swept away in favor of something else. Buffy character development, Spike development, Spangel, Bangel etc. It continues this cycle even in the comics. I've been feeling like lately, there's not much of a place for S/B in the big picture. It's rather empty portrayal in the comics as of S9 certainly isn't helping.

I would think that the only thing the Spuffy fans could be angry over during S7 was that Buffy and Spike never confessed their love to each other without one side of the party not believing it, as well as the constant stagnancy during their "relationship" that never progressed to something real. And that Buffy kissed Angel within five minutes in her sight while Spike, who had been with her the entire year, did not get that when he "deserved it more". I can already hear the Spuffies screaming their rage over that, but I don't see why they should be mad over anything else. Joss gave them eye candy, an entire season's worth. Hell, even Angel got brushed off for a Spuffy resolution/Spike growth in Chosen. That was for them.

Nowadays, all I see are Spuffy fans bragging over how great S7 was for Spuffy and that it's "true love/soulmate material". Rolling Eyes

Imblack21 wrote:

Season 3 and then season 4 of any hinted at C/A was about 2 things - Cordy's ascension and Angel's descent and then Cordy's posession and Connor's desecent and how those things affected Angel. Once again, any relationship hinted at, much like Spuffy, was not about the relationship but about what it allowed the writers to do to the characters.


So what I'm getting from this is that C/A's purpose was never about Angel finding someone else to see as a "soulmate". It's a couple that Joss never intended to really have together. It was just useful in adding flavor to the story and affecting the characters. Which is exactly why he constantly blocked the relationship's potential in both seasons. He never wanted them together, he was toying with both the fans and the storyline.

Huh ... I think I see a point to Cangel after all.

I do have a question though. How is Bangel any different? It was a relationship that added drama and flavor to the storyline, but Joss frequently put roadblocks up too like he does with every Whedonverse couple. Doesn't that mean he never intends for them to stay together, he just enjoys playing up the aspects of the characters? Is it like Cangel with the same purpose?

I'm not saying I believe this, I just wanna see your thoughts.

Imblack21 wrote:

Season 1-3 Cordy was in his life, but left him at crucial moments indicating she didn't understand him, nor was she strong enough to stand by him when he needed her most. I don't think she fell in love. Season 3 was about her fall - "pride goeth before a fall" after all. And also, not to quibble - much, lol - but there WAS no Spuffy "romance" AT ALL.


Yes, but she was there for Angel on some occasions where Buffy was not. Season 3 was a biggie for example. Angel had a son that he loved more than anything. Cordelia not only knew he had a son (Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Buffy knew about Connor in S3), she helped raise him. She became like a surrogate mother to him in their own little "family". I have never expected Buffy to accept Connor with that much ease given her complicated history with Angel and Cordelia's blank slate in comparison, but she missed out on his relationship with Connor. That was a crucial time in his life Cordelia was involved in and Buffy wasn't. Or when Holtz kidnapped Connor. Cordelia was again there for him and never left Angel's side because she knew how much he was suffering. Cue the downfall of the Groo/Cordy relationship. That was another Connor-related moment she was involved in, and it was very big.

Same goes to Spike and the extent of Buffy's depression, of course with coarser behavior and not nearly as "Wow, he gets her". But again, Spike saw Buffy's darkness and Angel didn't. A crucial moment in Buffy's life he should've been involved in, but wasn't.

As for Spuffy, there were at least mutual romantic feelings. Maybe not true romance in a relationship sense, but still feelings. Buffy just didn't fall in love with him the way Spike did with her.

Imblack21 wrote:

And of course, in the episode "Waiting in the Wings", which was written by Joss Whedon, he finally had a character acknowledge that while they "thought" Angel was meant for Cordy, it turned out they were wrong and that really you never knew about these things. That, to me, is Joss' answer to the fans who wanted C/A. You think Cordy's meant to be with Angel but it just isn't so. This is all an echo of B/A, right down to lovers posession, a pale reflection, not real.


Hmm ... you may have a point with this. I don't think Cordelia and Angel were meant to be together, despite what some fans say. 'Cause I know if they were, Joss wouldn't constantly sidestep putting them together past so-called "emphasis". It's like with Spuffy in this regard. You get focus of them, but then leave furthering the relationship out of the question. They were given so many distractions and unnecessary obstacles, it all just pointed to them not belonging together. Whatever else I say about Cangel, I know, love or not, it wasn't true love.

Some might argue how is Bangel any different. It's different because they, ironically, never had that many problems keeping them from being together. It's main issues were just two things: Being unable to sleep together and Angel feeling undeserving. And even when they are given obstacles (Buffy dying, Riley, Spike, Giles' neck snapped etc.), it never just shut down like C/A seemingly did. It continued years after years, not just two seasons and poof. Joss still has story for the couple, he hasn't tossed it aside. And that is why Bangel are soulmates, not Cangel.

About Waiting in the Wings, I have to say I agree. You get Cangel goodness throughout the whole episode, supposedly saying "Oh, they belong together! They're soulmates!". And then bam! A huge roadblock and Fred saying they didn't belong together after all. Sure, the Groo/Cordy relationship fizzled out, but the ridiculous number of obstacles were not nothing.

I also noticed that Lorne, like Fred, shipped Cangel. He kept saying "Kreumption" apparently between Cordy and Angel meant they were soulmates. That annoyed me, just because it seemed like he was only saying that because they were "champions". I was just like the whole time "So is Buffy, y'know." Rolling Eyes

Imblack21 wrote:

Also, think about this - what if that hadn't been a dream. Do you REALLY think Cordelia (or any woman who knows Angel's history and feelings for Buffy) could excuse his calling out Buffy's name while having sex with them? Do you really think she'd feel better knowing he did it as you suggest because it all just reminded him of that time with Buffy? THAT is illogical. Angel was 'dying' in that his soul was being ripped away from him and he called out to who he loved.

Not to mention, and I've talked about this before, the entire scene with Cordy/Angel WAS very reminscent of the Buffy/Angel love-making in season 2. Coincidence? Again, I don't think so.


If the scene had actually happened, Cangel would probably crumble right there. There's no way Cordelia would buy that reason from Angel. Eventually, the Buffy card would be brought up and Angel would never deny loving Buffy, he holds his feelings too highly. And, to me at least, Cordelia wouldn't put up with it. Even if they did start a relationship, Angel's feelings for Buffy would eventually destroy it. Just like what happened with Briley vs. Bangel in S5.

That's what I meant by B/A subtext. You do have a point in what you're saying, which is why I still think Bangel is superior to C/A. There was subtext, but Angel was not fantasizing about Buffy in the "perfect dream". It was remembering how it felt having his soul ripped out, so he said her name. The subtext did imply B/A however and I agree that Angel's love for Cordelia is an echo of his love for Buffy. Cordy and Buffy became a lot alike by Angel S3, it was almost scary how much Cordelia became like her.

Imblack21 wrote:
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but Buffy couldn't be there in person because The WB had forbidden crossovers - they even limited the number of times a character could say Buffy's name. So the writers used a work-around. Made the scene reminiscent of B/A and had Angel call out BUFFY'S name.


This point not withstanding, of course. I totally understand that. I know Buffy could not crossover, but I'm focusing on the story reasons, not ones like those. Also, was it ever really confirmed SMG was supposed to be in that episode? I know it was for Your Welcome. I'm not sure about Awakening. And why was Willow allowed to crossover for S4, but not Buffy?

Imblack21 wrote:

He/Angelus treated Fred much more obsessively than he did Cordy. And only Buffy was Angelus obsessed with - even in season 4 of AtS when he was disappointed that she wasn't coming to town and when he spoke of her to Wes, calling her a pistol. He weirdly has fond memories of her but insults Cordelia. Here's your sign...


Eh, maybe Angelus. I don't see how Angel treated Fred more obsessively than Cordelia. Angelus's "feelings" for Buffy are ... weird. I don't understand them sometimes. I know he "hates" Buffy for making Angel feel love and she's probably his favorite person to torment (Which makes sense. Soulless vampires love to torment those closest to them when they had a soul. Well, except Spike). Angelus would have definitely travelled to Sunnydale afterwards if he killed off all his friends and Connor. But at the same time I feel like he's "attracted" to some parts of her personality. He likes her courage, snarky attitude, and how challenging she can be, kinda like Angel does. Only in an extremely more twisted, love/hate way. He's also definitely sexually attracted to her. Or maybe I read too many fanfictions lol.

Anyway, I did notice that. He seemed to particularly dislike Cordelia because "she never stops talking" (lol ironic), but he wasn't obsessed with "ruining her life/killing her" like he was with Buffy. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually think Angelus "likes" Buffy more.

Angelus and his bi-polar complexities lol ...

Imblack21 wrote:
If you're in love with someone else who's in a coma, you don't happily make out with an ex from years before and talk about a possible future with them. You just DON'T.


Okay, coma, I know. Kind of a "wow he really did that" moment if he was in love with her. But I just think it demonstrated that whatever he feels for Buffy is stronger than what he felt for Cordelia. I believe Angel fell for Cordelia, but he just loved Buffy more. Or at the very least, had more intense romantic desires for her. Making out with her, flirting with her, asking if they could be together again while Cordelia was in a coma really gives you perspective.

If anyone really thought Cordelia was the one he loved the most, they shouldn't of still thought that after something as obvious as End of Days/Chosen. Really.

Imblack21 wrote:

Sure, she was proud of him. But she was ALSO looking towards her own future and smiling thinking about it. She was *happy* - not happy that Spike had died....but happy she was free and had a future. Which proves that she was NOT in love with Spike. She loved him in that moment he died but she was able to almost immediately think of a happy future and smile. Again, you don't do that if your future doesn't include the person you've just discovered you're in love with.


You just explained why I can't buy that Buffy was in love with Spike either, no matter what the Spuffies say. I'm sure Buffy was sad, and she definitely missed Spike until she found out he was alive somehow in S8. He meant a lot to her, and still does. But I'd expect Buffy to actually show some more grief for Spike's passing if she was completely in love with him, no matter how mature she became over the years. Some tears of sadness would be nice.

imblack21 wrote:

It's possible - *possible* - that Cordy fell for Angel - or at least thought she had after being talked into it. But yes, Angel KNEW he got a vision - he tells the gang that when he tells them that he got the vision "months ago". The kiss was about the vision and sure about feelings too because she was leaving and that made him sad. But even after he finds out she died and that was all vision Cordy he only said "thank you".


I'm glad you admit it as possibility, even if you don't agree. Actually, though, Angel did not realize she gave him a vision until later. Can't explain how it works, but I believe it was in Power Play that it came to him. After sleeping with Nina, to be specific.

I didn't expect Angel to completely break down because of Cordelia's death because it's different from Buffy. Buffy took over his entire life once until he found a job and friends, able to exist without her on solid footing. Of course it would heavily affect more, to the point he'd leave for three months. Cordelia never had that. What's more is that Angel was in the middle of overthrowing Wolfram & Hart, so clearly he wouldn't cause his feelings to distract him. Angel's surprisingly focused when it comes to things like that.

So, I have question for you. If you think Cangel was all friendship, then how exactly would you explain the perfect dream and kiss? Just curious.

Imblack21 wrote:

I could write for days on why they didn't know each other well or understand each other, weren't always happy or trusting or supportive of each other. They often weren't mature and was severely *under-developed* - hence, not beautiful in those regards. But we obviously have different interpretations so...


Eh, I'm open-minded. I haven't watched S3-S4 in months, so my memory of it and the Cangelness is a little hazy. I remember seeing the relationship and my first impression being there was nothing wrong with it, so I couldn't understand why I didn't ship it. But I'd be glad to see your view of Cangel not being "perfect" so next time I do watch it, I could keep your perspective in mind and see if I agree with it or not. Very Happy

Imblack21 wrote:
Same goes for Buffy and yet, I still don't believe she was IN love with Spike. Sorry, I just don't see it for either ship. I'm sorry if they cause you continued distress so many years later but I've long since dealt with my issues about them and am finally in a good place with what I feel and know about the shows, characters and relationships.


I also thought that once, given Buffy's sometimes distant demeanor with people. But, after a recent re-watch of Buffy S3, S4, and S5, I realize that's not exactly true. Buffy and Angel share the 'hiding true feelings' bit, but Buffy's not as stoic as him. She's a lot more affectionate and loving with those closest to her, while Angel struggles to unless he's in love with the person or it's Connor. Buffy's said 'I love you' platonically to Willow, Giles, Xander, Dawn, and Joyce. Angel's never said that out loud to any of his friends.

Spuffy nor Cangel have caused me any stress. I don't feel any "In love" feelings from Buffy's side, even though I like the Spuffy relationship. And Cangel ... I feel love but not enough to eclipse Bangel so I've made peace with it.

@janas:

You're right, Spuffy always served a direct and clear purpose. S7 was a little more murky, but it still didn't consist of real love. I know, I hated all the pointless pain they made Angel go through over Cordy. They did try too hard to make Cordelia like Buffy, it really bothered me. She was just way too perfect for my tastes. Buffy is unabashedly my favorite character in the series, I'm extremely fond of her personality and her journey. But she's not perfect. Some might say otherwise, but she really isn't. She's made mistakes in her life, maybe not to the extent of some characters like Angel, Faith, or Willow but enough. She's perfectly imperfect. Don't get me wrong, I like Cordelia's personality, and I never wanted her to go through such hell like she did in S4. But she's just not Buffy.

Ick, I hate that love triangle. Connor/Cordelia ... ugh. But I wasn't talking about that one. I was talking about one between Angel/Buffy/Cordelia and some sort of conflict for him that would prove to me Joss Whedon took the couple seriously. Buffy is Angel's great love, right? Then we get Cangel focus. The answer everyone would like to hear. Who does Angel love more? Something like that. Buffy has this with Angel and Spike, which shows me he takes those two couples more seriously. C/A was just out there. Like I said earlier, Chosen was pretty clear but y'know some fans don't get it yet.

On the contray. You can very easily fall in love with two people if the suitors are special enough. I saw this with Angel, but I also saw it was resolved. Sure, he loves(ed) Cordelia, but he did not love her the way he loved Buffy. Just like Buffy didn't love Spike the way she loved Angel. I give C/A credit where it's due. It would've been more possible for Cordelia to be his soulmate instead if Joss had them enter a real relationship. But he never did, so Angel's big love remains to be Buffy because that's all he's ever known. I realized this in the Buffy season finale. So yeah, Joss made sure C/A had no future.

Your Welcome proved mutual romantic feelings. Just because Cordelia kissed Angel to help him through a vision does not mean the feelings weren't real. I thought Cordy made it pretty clear she loved Angel genuinely, as well as Angel himself IMO.

I just hear Cangelers comparing B/A to their ship, and I always see them saying Cangel is true love because Angel was happier with her. And I never understood nor agreed with that because it's not looking at the whole picture. Angel was happier with Cordelia because he never had the emotional baggage like he has with Buffy. They were just friends before the drama, they didn't have complicated crap like that. With Buffy, Angel has to constantly deal with the burden of loving Buffy but never being with her. That's why their relationship is so unhappy. And Buffy has certainly proved to make him immensely happy on many occasions. Surprise, I Will Remember You, even End of Days/Chosen before Spike had to sour it for him.

Anyway, about your argument. It's true that Angel's pain for Cordelia sleeping with his son was very real, but it's brushed off because that was never really Cordelia so they don't count it. You make a very good point, it was ridiculous how long it took for Angel to realize it wasn't Cordelia. If they're supposed to be "soulmates", I would think Angel would figure it out way before that. That's a great point, janas.

Lol, I found it funny too. "Mount". Oh Joss, and his messed up humor. Laughing It's romantic because Cangel is symbolized by a badass dragon lol? All jokes aside, I think the romantic part was that Angel kept acting like he was talking to Cordelia when he was injuried to "stay sane", showing how much he needed her. Honestly, I always found that a bit random just because we didn't see any C/A references since Your Welcome but whatever floats their boat. And I didn't mind the Claddagh ring presence in the alternate cover, I found it cute. Showing his heart with the original team, y'know? Still doesn't change how much he loves Buffy or his loyalty to Wesley/Fred.

Thanks for telling me about Joss not wanting Cordelia in ATF, it makes me happy. Though I'm also now under the impression Brian Lynch is a huge Cordy/Cangel fan ...
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lmblack21
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Joined: 07 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:

I would think that the only thing the Spuffy fans could be angry over during S7 was that Buffy and Spike never confessed their love to each other without one side of the party not believing it, as well as the constant stagnancy during their "relationship" that never progressed to something real. And that Buffy kissed Angel within five minutes in her sight while Spike, who had been with her the entire year, did not get that when he "deserved it more". I can already hear the Spuffies screaming their rage over that, but I don't see why they should be mad over anything else. Joss gave them eye candy, an entire season's worth. Hell, even Angel got brushed off for a Spuffy resolution/Spike growth in Chosen. That was for them.


I can't get too worked up if people get angry with Buffy because she didn't give Spike what he wanted. Buffy is not a prize to be handed to the person other people think "deserves" it more. Buffy is allowed her feelings and she did right by Spike in season 7 by defending him and caring for him and believing in him. Spike doesn't get the romantic love because he deserves it. That has always been a gross rationalization to me.

I also disagree that Angel got brushed off for Spike - that's a Spuffy rationale but not at all what happened. Hell, Buffy even SAID she wasn't giving Angel the brush-off. If people choose to disregard the canon, that's their choice. I think you are drinking too much of the Spuffy koolaid for a B/Aer. Also your choice but....weird to me. I think season 7 didn't do any favors to B/S at all.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Nowadays, all I see are Spuffy fans bragging over how great S7 was for Spuffy and that it's "true love/soulmate material". Rolling Eyes


Who cares?

RomancexGirl wrote:
I do have a question though. How is Bangel any different? It was a relationship that added drama and flavor to the storyline, but Joss frequently put roadblocks up too like he does with every Whedonverse couple. Doesn't that mean he never intends for them to stay together, he just enjoys playing up the aspects of the characters? Is it like Cangel with the same purpose?

I'm not saying I believe this, I just wanna see your thoughts.


You'll have to figure out what it means for you. I feel like you're allowing yourself to be influenced by too much of what other people think and believe. And I get it, it's difficult not to be influenced.

For me, the difference in B/A is that the *relationship* existed and was never ambiguous. It wasn't just about advancing Buffy's journey or advancing Angel's journey, though of course it did that too. But it was also about the relationship - the highs, the lows, the love. This relationship was one that is referenced in every season, in every relationship B/A is a looming shadow. There were crossovers in EVERY season, even when we didn't see it (season 6) or when it was twarted (season 5 of AtS). The relationship was important as a relationship, not just as a device to move the characters. THAT is the material difference between B/A and B/S, C/A.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Yes, but she was there for Angel on some occasions where Buffy was not. Season 3 was a biggie for example. Angel had a son that he loved more than anything. Cordelia not only knew he had a son (Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Buffy knew about Connor in S3), she helped raise him. She became like a surrogate mother to him in their own little "family". I have never expected Buffy to accept Connor with that much ease given her complicated history with Angel and Cordelia's blank slate in comparison, but she missed out on his relationship with Connor. That was a crucial time in his life Cordelia was involved in and Buffy wasn't. Or when Holtz kidnapped Connor. Cordelia was again there for him and never left Angel's side because she knew how much he was suffering. Cue the downfall of the Groo/Cordy relationship. That was another Connor-related moment she was involved in, and it was very big.


Please don't misunderstand me. Cordy was important in Angel's life and no getting around the fact that she was there for him during times Buffy wasn't. But I object to this romanticized ideal you paint around C/A as if it was this beautiful, fully supportive, always perfect relationship. Cordy - through her actions which led to the rise of the Beast/Jasmine - also led to the downfall of Connor and his eventual destruction. Cordy was NOT *always* there for Angel, she let him down in some very crucial ways.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Same goes to Spike and the extent of Buffy's depression, of course with coarser behavior and not nearly as "Wow, he gets her". But again, Spike saw Buffy's darkness and Angel didn't. A crucial moment in Buffy's life he should've been involved in, but wasn't.


Spike was there for Buffy during her depression UNTIL she kissed him. Then he became so obsessed with having her sexually that he didn't give a flying fig what was happening with her. He *never* got her.

Also, anyone who thinks Angel never saw the darkness Buffy was capable of is forgetting how Angel saw Buffy torture a vamp for information, or how she treated her friends in "When She Was Bad", or when she went out to kill Faith in cold blood to save Angel, or how she "killed" Ted in a rage....to name a few.

What Spike saw was Buffy's suicidal depression.

RomancexGirl wrote:
As for Spuffy, there were at least mutual romantic feelings. Maybe not true romance in a relationship sense, but still feelings. Buffy just didn't fall in love with him the way Spike did with her.


I disagree. Sexual feelings, brought about by a lack of any other feeling is NOT romantic feelings. I never saw Buffy exhibit romantic feelings towards Spike.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I also noticed that Lorne, like Fred, shipped Cangel. He kept saying "Kreumption" apparently between Cordy and Angel meant they were soulmates. That annoyed me, just because it seemed like he was only saying that because they were "was just like the whole time "So is Buffy, y'know." Rolling Eyes


You forget the other definition of Kye-rumption as told by Fred: It's also a kind of grog made out of the ox dung.

Just saying.

RomancexGirl wrote:
If the scene had actually happened, Cangel would probably crumble right there. There's no way Cordelia would buy that reason from Angel. Eventually, the Buffy card would be brought up and Angel would never deny loving Buffy, he holds his feelings too highly. And, to me at least, Cordelia wouldn't put up with it. Even if they did start a relationship, Angel's feelings for Buffy would eventually destroy it. Just like what happened with Briley vs. Bangel in S5.


Exactly. Here's your sign.

RomancexGirl wrote:
That's what I meant by B/A subtext. You do have a point in what you're saying, which is why I still think Bangel is superior to C/A. There was subtext, but Angel was not fantasizing about Buffy in the "perfect dream". It was remembering how it felt having his soul ripped out, so he said her name. The subtext did imply B/A however and I agree that Angel's love for Cordelia is an echo of his love for Buffy. Cordy and Buffy became a lot alike by Angel S3, it was almost scary how much Cordelia became like her.


I've already talked at length about this. I do not buy the "logic" that Angel called out Buffy's name because he felt his soul being ripped out. He thought that was happening with Darla too and he didn't call out to Buffy. So yes, I do think he was fantasizing about Buffy, Cordy was just the substitute.

RomancexGirl wrote:
This point not withstanding, of course. I totally understand that. I know Buffy could not crossover, but I'm focusing on the story reasons, not ones like those. Also, was it ever really confirmed SMG was supposed to be in that episode? I know it was for Your Welcome. I'm not sure about Awakening. And why was Willow allowed to crossover for S4, but not Buffy?


No, Buffy was never intended to show up in season 4 - The WB had barred crossovers. Willow was allowed a cameo but she didn't speak. And she's not Buffy. As to why they allowed that and not Buffy, that should be obvious. Buffy and by extension, B/A is the draw. The WB didn't want to allow UPN to capitalize on that after all the bad blood in losing Buffy to them.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I know he "hates" Buffy for making Angel feel love and she's probably his favorite person to torment (Which makes sense. Soulless vampires love to torment those closest to them when they had a soul. Well, except Spike).


I know you like Spike but seriously, this is major blinders. Spike *constantly* tortured people he claimed to love. He and Angelus are not as different as people like to think. They just aren't.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Angelus would have definitely travelled to Sunnydale afterwards if he killed off all his friends and Connor. But at the same time I feel like he's "attracted" to some parts of her personality. He likes her courage, snarky attitude, and how challenging she can be, kinda like Angel does. Only in an extremely more twisted, love/hate way. He's also definitely sexually attracted to her. Or maybe I read too many fanfictions lol.


Angelus is absolutely drawn to Buffy and has his own bizarre affection for her. He's stated it outright, he's shown it. For other victims, he nailed puppy dogs to their door - for Buffy he gave her a dozen gorgeous red roses - not even dead roses. He drew a picture of her while she slept instead of killing her mother and leaving her corpse for Buffy to find. He stroked her hair out of her face. He told her she was the one thing in the world he'd miss. It was twisted and sick and delightful storytelling.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Angelus and his bi-polar complexities lol ...


All soulless vampires are bi-polar characters.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I'm glad you admit it as possibility, even if you don't agree. Actually, though, Angel did not realize she gave him a vision until later. Can't explain how it works, but I believe it was in Power Play that it came to him. After sleeping with Nina, to be specific.


Sorry, incorrect. He tells his friends in "Power Play", when they asked when it all started that it was, "2 months ago. With a kiss." It *started* two months ago with that kiss. It wasn't months later. The vision was passed on to him with that kiss. So no, it was not after sleeping with Nina. He even says it fully hit him later that night.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I didn't expect Angel to completely break down because of Cordelia's death because it's different from Buffy. Buffy took over his entire life once until he found a job and friends, able to exist without her on solid footing. Of course it would heavily affect more, to the point he'd leave for three months. Cordelia never had that. What's more is that Angel was in the middle of overthrowing Wolfram & Hart, so clearly he wouldn't cause his feelings to distract him. Angel's surprisingly focused when it comes to things like that.


Rationalizations. Sorry, grief doesn't work like that. Grief doesn't care about the burdens you carry or the responsibilities you have. Grief has it's own time table. I'm not trying to take anything from Cordy. Angel loved her, he grieved for her, but yes, very differently than Buffy because his love for her was different. For Angel, Cordy was family. Buffy was his big love, his passion, his soulmate. Ergo, he's able to deal with the grief of Cordy's passing without falling to pieces, unlike what happens with Buffy's death.

RomancexGirl wrote:
So, I have question for you. If you think Cangel was all friendship, then how exactly would you explain the perfect dream and kiss? Just curious.


I've explained both at length. Can't help you more. You are, of course, free to believe what you will.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Eh, I'm open-minded. I haven't watched S3-S4 in months, so my memory of it and the Cangelness is a little hazy. I remember seeing the relationship and my first impression being there was nothing wrong with it, so I couldn't understand why I didn't ship it. But I'd be glad to see your view of Cangel not being "perfect" so next time I do watch it, I could keep your perspective in mind and see if I agree with it or not. Very Happy


I saw plenty of reasons why it worked as a sibling relationship/as family but not as a romantic relationship between equals and partners.


RomancexGirl wrote:
On the contray. You can very easily fall in love with two people if the suitors are special enough.


I know it's personal opinion but I'm with Janas - I don't think it's possible - really possible - for a person to fall in love with 2 vastly different people at the same time.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Your Welcome proved mutual romantic feelings.


No it didn't.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I just hear Cangelers comparing B/A to their ship,


You should stop doing that - it's coloring your own perspective, though again I know how hard it is to stop doing it. You have to decide how YOU feel, not base your feelings on other people's interpretations.

RomancexGirl wrote:
and I always see them saying Cangel is true love because Angel was happier with her.


Except he wasn't.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Anyway, about your argument. It's true that Angel's pain for Cordelia sleeping with his son was very real, but it's brushed off because that was never really Cordelia so they don't count it. You make a very good point, it was ridiculous how long it took for Angel to realize it wasn't Cordelia. If they're supposed to be "soulmates", I would think Angel would figure it out way before that. That's a great point, janas.


I don't think it was brushed off - because for Connor, it couldn't be. And then Cordy never came back.


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RomancexGirl
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

I also disagree that Angel got brushed off for Spike - that's a Spuffy rationale but not at all what happened. Hell, Buffy even SAID she wasn't giving Angel the brush-off. If people choose to disregard the canon, that's their choice. I think you are drinking too much of the Spuffy koolaid for a B/Aer. Also your choice but....weird to me. I think season 7 didn't do any favors to B/S at all.


You misunderstand. I didn't mean Buffy was literally brushing Angel off. Her logical reason was a second front and her Spike reason was because she found it unfair for Angel to ruin everything for Spike after everything he did for her. Buffy felt obligated. But I do think Joss's motivation was giving Angel the brush-off, just not that way. If Angel had stayed, any more Spuffy moments would have fallen apart and Spike would have also never got his champion death moment that furthered his character. Joss IMO really wanted this to happen, it was the whole point of the season. So yes, B/A and Angel could not stick around for the whole season finale.

I don't even consider myself a "true" Spuffy fan, honestly. I love Angel way more than I do Spike, I still never can believe Buffy fell in love Spike, I don't feel any true Spuffy shipping pain besides "Aww, poor Spike", and I still feel uncomfortable over the thought of Buffy sleeping with Spike again (just a little). I appreciate the uniqueness and maturity of the relationship, as well as how much Spike has done for Buffy. I do like that about S/B, but I'm still very much more Bangel. I understand I seem a little too Spuffy sometimes, but that's only because I defend it when I think it deserves defending. Which yes, happens a lot. I'm a unique B/Aer lol.

IMO, S7 did Spuffy tons of favors. I only actually found something likable about it then. It was different in a lot of ways from S6. Buffy trusted Spike, believed in him, and stood by him. She never did any of this in S6, their relationship was dysfunction city. She even actually considered giving Spike a chance with her in End of Days. Buffy went from "I could never trust you enough to love you" to "Spike's the only one who's got my back." Pretty sharp difference, I think.

Imblack21 wrote:
You'll have to figure out what it means for you. I feel like you're allowing yourself to be influenced by too much of what other people think and believe. And I get it, it's difficult not to be influenced.


Just because I like hearing what people think does not mean I don't have my own opinions. I don't blindly agree to everything everyone ever says. I've demonstrated that in these debates. I'm sure some people have influenced a few of my opinions, as what happens to most people. I see different interpretations enough times, but that's because I like to see things at all sides. There are other ways to look at something, not just your own.

Like I said though, I have my own way of seeing things too. Smile

Imblack21 wrote:

Please don't misunderstand me. Cordy was important in Angel's life and no getting around the fact that she was there for him during times Buffy wasn't. But I object to this romanticized ideal you paint around C/A as if it was this beautiful, fully supportive, always perfect relationship. Cordy - through her actions which led to the rise of the Beast/Jasmine - also led to the downfall of Connor and his eventual destruction. Cordy was NOT *always* there for Angel, she let him down in some very crucial ways.


How was any of that her fault? It's not like she wanted nor knew any of what was happening. Cordelia put duty over love because she saw being a Higher Being was what would help her to do good. Buffy has demonstrated this responsibility of others countless times. It caused both Connor and Angel as well as herself great pain, but she had no idea everything would go so wrong. She was manipulated and used, a victim that ended up hurting the people around her. I feel great sympathy for her, I don't blame her at all.

Imblack21 wrote:

Spike was there for Buffy during her depression UNTIL she kissed him. Then he became so obsessed with having her sexually that he didn't give a flying fig what was happening with her. He *never* got her.

Also, anyone who thinks Angel never saw the darkness Buffy was capable of is forgetting how Angel saw Buffy torture a vamp for information, or how she treated her friends in "When She Was Bad", or when she went out to kill Faith in cold blood to save Angel, or how she "killed" Ted in a rage....to name a few.


No getting around that. Spike was destroying everything Buffy was, Buffy was destroying Spike, they were just destroying each other. It was just awful, there's no way that was helping either of them.

Sure, Angel saw glances of it. Hell, I'm sure even in the off-screen meeting he saw more because of her depression. But he never saw the whole package, not like Spike did. He saw right up close the dirty and ugly stuff, he was right in the thick of it. Even what he did with that darkness was far from spectacular, he still saw a side of Buffy that had never been that extreme before. Spike saw Buffy brutally beat him up in an alleyway to demonstrate just how much she hated herself. When she thought she killed an innocent human, and immediately tried to turn herself in. And when she nearly committed suicide willingly in OMWF because the world was too hard for her, only to be stopped by Spike. Angel didn't see any of this, a time when certain parts of her character changed forever.

Imblack21 wrote:

I disagree. Sexual feelings, brought about by a lack of any other feeling is NOT romantic feelings. I never saw Buffy exhibit romantic feelings towards Spike.


That was most of S6. Buffy had no true investment in him other than using him for sex to "feel" because she could since Spike wanted her so badly. Eventually, by Dead Things, Buffy had developed feelings of care for him. That's why she could not take her using him anymore because it was killing her, it made her feel like a terrible person because she knew Spike's feelings were very real to him. Buffy even admitted towards the end of S6 she did have feelings for Spike, but she didn't love him (Seeing Red). That's one of the reasons she rejected sleeping with him again because it was not as real for her.

S7 was different, however. Buffy gave many signs she had real romantic feelings for him. She really sympathized with him, but it was more than that. Spike became her rock to reality, she even said she needed him to be there. There were also sexual tension references between them in Storyteller. Buffy was jealous of Spike and Faith's connections in Dirty Girls, they spent a long time staring into each other's eyes in Touched, and she spent her last few nights before the final battle cuddling with Spike in Chosen. You do not do any of this to a simple friend.

Buffy does have feelings for Spike, both romantic and sexual. But she didn't fall in love with him, that's why Spike's constant attentions and pursuit of a relationship with her makes her guilty. She avoids it because she can't give him what he wants.

Imblack21 wrote:

You forget the other definition of Kye-rumption as told by Fred: It's also a kind of grog made out of the ox dung.

Just saying.


Lol, that's perfect. Laughing

Imblack21 wrote:

I've already talked at length about this. I do not buy the "logic" that Angel called out Buffy's name because he felt his soul being ripped out. He thought that was happening with Darla too and he didn't call out to Buffy. So yes, I do think he was fantasizing about Buffy, Cordy was just the substitute.


Think of it like this. If the dream is supposed to be a "perfect dream", then it makes no sense to fantasize over another in a "perfect dream". It's supposed to be perfect, it was designed to be perfect. Fantasizing over another has no place in it, why not just have the person in the dream? Okay, yes no crossovers. But let's ignore that bit. It also doesn't help that he said Buffy's name as an afterthought right when he tried to get away from Cordelia when his soul was leaving.

I agree that there was B/A subtext. That's important also. But just because he lost his soul in Cordelia does not mean his love for Buffy was somehow wavering. We have ample proof that it did not.

Imblack21 wrote:

No, Buffy was never intended to show up in season 4 - The WB had barred crossovers. Willow was allowed a cameo but she didn't speak. And she's not Buffy. As to why they allowed that and not Buffy, that should be obvious. Buffy and by extension, B/A is the draw. The WB didn't want to allow UPN to capitalize on that after all the bad blood in losing Buffy to them.


It's really such a shame to me the WB couldn't overcome their rivalry to allow some more crossovers while the show was on the air. It had so much potential. Buffy/Spike/Angel love triangle focus, possible Buffy/Cordy/Angel one, Buffy meeting Connor, Buffy and Faith going up against Angelus. It would've made some amazing episodes. *sigh*

Imblack21 wrote:

I know you like Spike but seriously, this is major blinders. Spike *constantly* tortured people he claimed to love. He and Angelus are not as different as people like to think. They just aren't.


No blinds over my eyes here. I know full-well how terrible Spike could treat the people he claimed to love when he was soulless. He taunted them, forced his affections on them constantly, made them feel like crap. He did that to Buffy especially, I can't even count the number of times. 'Specially in S6. Soulless vampires are just like that. But the difference between Angelus and Spike was still distinct. Spike had less self-respect for himself. He could become so obsessive over a woman, he would sink to any level for them. He literally had no pride because he was so obsessed with the idea of love. It could even be seen that this may be worse than Angelus from a different perspective because despite the terrible things he did, he still claimed he loved them. And unlike Angelus, Spike was so eager for the approval of those he loved, he would even do "good" acts for them (like he did with Buffy in S5). And he was capable of thinking about their well-being over himself. Like he did with "Intervention" and his guilt of not protecting Dawn when Buffy killed herself in "The Gift".

Angelus is a very different breed. They share the obsessive quality of women, but not for the same reason. Angelus despises love, unlike Spike who cherishes it. So his way of acting out against his obsessions is ruining their life entirely because he hates feeling love. Angelus is also far too prideful to ever do anything good for Buffy or even help her on the side of good for approval. He just torments her, he never would be like Spike (who did both).

Angelus and Spike are very alike, but also very different.

Imblack21 wrote:

Angelus is absolutely drawn to Buffy and has his own bizarre affection for her. He's stated it outright, he's shown it. For other victims, he nailed puppy dogs to their door - for Buffy he gave her a dozen gorgeous red roses - not even dead roses. He drew a picture of her while she slept instead of killing her mother and leaving her corpse for Buffy to find. He stroked her hair out of her face. He told her she was the one thing in the world he'd miss. It was twisted and sick and delightful storytelling.


I remember creating a thread in another forum about how Spuffy (S5-S6) and Bangelus weren't really that different. I mentioned the parallel on how both Spike and Angelus were entirely obsessed with ruining her life and killing her which was (imo) their way of masking the less antagonistic feelings for her. But the difference was when Spike realized it, he embraced it while Angelus still utterly denied it, went insane, and nearly ended the world. Not like Spuffy exactly, but feel like the obsessive aspects were kinda the same.

Most fans responded negatively to my theory, saying "No, Angelus hates Buffy. It's not like S5-S6 Spuffy at all." I think they missed the part where I said I don't think Angelus is capable of love nor was I trying to say that, but they overlooked the bi-polar affection he seemed to have for her.

Imblack21 wrote:
All soulless vampires are bi-polar characters.


Well, yeah. I wasn't trying to deny that, I was just saying Angelus was like that also. Relax lol, no need to get super technical over a little comment.

Imblack21 wrote:

Sorry, incorrect. He tells his friends in "Power Play", when they asked when it all started that it was, "2 months ago. With a kiss." It *started* two months ago with that kiss. It wasn't months later. The vision was passed on to him with that kiss. So no, it was not after sleeping with Nina. He even says it fully hit him later that night.


Point taken. Sorry for that, I haven't watched that episode in a while so I don't remember quite everything.

Imblack21 wrote:

Rationalizations. Sorry, grief doesn't work like that. Grief doesn't care about the burdens you carry or the responsibilities you have. Grief has it's own time table. I'm not trying to take anything from Cordy. Angel loved her, he grieved for her, but yes, very differently than Buffy because his love for her was different. For Angel, Cordy was family. Buffy was his big love, his passion, his soulmate. Ergo, he's able to deal with the grief of Cordy's passing without falling to pieces, unlike what happens with Buffy's death.


Depends on the person. Some people are really emotional people and can't always control how upset they are over something. Others are more level-headed and can ignore their feelings of grief if they have something important to do. Angel's usually that type of person. At least when he's occupying himself with some sort of mission. Wolfram & Hart was his mission, Angel wouldn't allow himself to be distracted.

Also, the fact that Buffy took over his whole life once to the extent Cordelia never did, of course he'd break down.

Imblack21 wrote:

I've explained both at length. Can't help you more. You are, of course, free to believe what you will.


Yes, you explained the kiss. But you never explained how Cordelia is supposedly just a friend to him when he sexually fantasized about her in Awakeningand lost his soul.

Imblack21 wrote:

I saw plenty of reasons why it worked as a sibling relationship/as family but not as a romantic relationship between equals and partners.


And I agree with that, I always believed Cordelia and Angel were better as friends without the complicated drama. Unfortunately, it didn't really stay that way.

Imblack21 wrote:
I know it's personal opinion but I'm with Janas - I don't think it's possible - really possible - for a person to fall in love with 2 vastly different people at the same time.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've found it very possible to love two people, I've seen many people in media and real life who say they have. Certain aspects appeal to you in each person, it happens. It seemed the case for Angel to me. And actually, Cordelia and Buffy aren't really that different. Not identical by any means, but I saw similiarities in both of them that would attract Angel.

Imblack21 wrote:
No it didn't.


Well, in my opinion it did. Notice the "in my opinion".

Imblack21 wrote:
You should stop doing that - it's coloring your own perspective, though again I know how hard it is to stop doing it. You have to decide how YOU feel, not base your feelings on other people's interpretations.


And I do. What, it's suddenly wrong to be open-minded? Confused

Imblack21 wrote:
Except he wasn't.


Angel wasn't angsting away over Cordelia like he was with Buffy. Not until S4 after "Cordelia" slept with Connor (understandable). As I explained earlier, Angel apparently seemed happier with Cordelia to some because their relationship was pretty simple. Angel's relationship with Buffy is complicated and has a lot of baggage to it. That never proved to me he loved Cordelia more.
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Last edited by RomancexGirl on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:15 am; edited 7 times in total
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:


You misunderstand. I didn't mean Buffy was literally brushing Angel off. Her logical reason was a second front and her Spike reason was because she found it unfair for Angel to ruin everything for Spike after everything he did for her. Buffy felt obligated. But I do think Joss's motivation was giving Angel the brush-off, just not that way. If Angel had stayed, any more Spuffy moments would have fallen apart and Spike would have also never got his champion death moment that furthered his character. Joss IMO really wanted this to happen, it was the whole point of the season. So yes, B/A and Angel could not stick around for the whole season finale.


Where we disagree, apparently, is that I don't think Buffy thought for a second that she couldn't keep Angel around because it wouldn't be fair to Spike or that Angel would ruin anything.

I think she felt it would create problems because she clearly still has this romantic desire and connection to Angel that would not sit well with Spike and she didn't have time or energy for more "vampire jealousy crap".

RomancexGirl wrote:
I don't even consider myself a "true" Spuffy fan, honestly. I love Angel way more than I do Spike, I still never can believe Buffy fell in love Spike, I don't feel any true Spuffy shipping pain besides "Aww, poor Spike", and I still feel uncomfortable if Buffy sleeps with Spike again (just a little). I appreciate the uniqueness and maturity of the relationship, as well as how much Spike has done for Buffy. I do like that about S/B, but I'm still very much more Bangel. I understand I seem a little too Spuffy sometimes, but that's only because I defend it when I think it deserves defending. Which yes, happens a lot. I'm a unique B/Aer lol.


I am sorry if you feel defensive about Spuffy, but for me, that's because I don't see that Spike did much of anything positive for Buffy at ALL until the end when he sacrificed himself to save her and the others. Buffy did a great deal for HIM, certainly, but I don't see much from Spike to Buffy, until the end when he sacrificed himself to save others. I don't feel that their relationship is particularly unique or mature and I have no "aww, poor Spike" pains - so undoubtedly we will butt heads over our interpretations.

RomancexGirl wrote:
IMO, S7 did Spuffy tons of favors. I only actually found something likable about it then. It was different in a lot of ways from S6. Buffy trusted Spike, believed in him, and stood by him. She never did any of this in S6, their relationship was dysfunction city. She even actually considered giving Spike a chance with her in End of Days. Buffy went from "I could never trust you enough to love you" to "Spike's the only one who's got my back." Pretty sharp difference, I think.


See, for me, season 7 was worse than season 6 for B/S. B/S in season 6 made sense from a suicidally depressed and lost point of view. But in season 7 it was SUCH a co-dependent relationship where Buffy felt obligated, guilty and responsible for Spike that every other relationship and THAT led to that ridiculous and untrue quote about how he was the only one who had her back. B/S was *horrible* in season 7 because once again, it ONLY HAPPENS by distancing Buffy from literally everyone else in her life. B/S can't coexist in a world where Buffy is healthy, happy AND still connected to other people. And no, I never saw her trying to give him a chance - with her. In fact, quite the opposite as she asked him if that night of comfort "has to mean something".

So really....not such a sharp difference, I don't think. In season 6, Spike said to Buffy that he was the "only one there" for her and that she "had no one else" and in season 7 they literally made that true and all in service of Spike's sacrifice at the end.

Disgusting.

Another reason I prefer Angel and B/A - because Angel said things like,"I know you don't feel like it now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure it out. And you have people to help you.'You don't have to do this alone."

Far superior.


RomancexGirl wrote:
Just because I like hearing what people think does not mean I don't have my own opinions. I don't blindly agree to everything everyone ever says.


I'm glad to hear that. It might be easier to see it though, if you didn't constantly bring up arguments used by Spuffy or C/A folks. I really don't think any of us here care what they think. They are entitled to see it their way, but we don't need to have their often repeated arguments brought in for us to refute or debate. Hell, if I wanted that still, I'd still be active in the larger fandom. I'm not, for a reason. I don't care how they see it. That's the greatest freedom ever. I'm very happy with how I see it, what I feel about it - I don't need to convince the "other side" that I'm right.


RomancexGirl wrote:
How was any of that her fault? It's not like she wanted nor knew any of what was happening. Cordelia put duty over love because she saw being a Higher Being was what would help her to do good. Buffy has demonstrated this responsibility of others countless times. It caused both Connor and Angel as well as herself great pain, but she had no idea everything would go so wrong. She was manipulated and used, a victim that ended up hurting the people around her. I feel great sympathy for her, I don't blame her at all.


She was victimized yes, but she CHOSE to go with Skip. She bought into the ridiculous notion that she was a higher being and ignored the vision she had of this actually happening. So her choices led to her being taken to a higher realm where she was then victimized. But she was complicit in her downfall. She questioned nothing, just accepted it as her due.

I liken this to Angel accepting what was told to him about Twilight - after he chose to accept it, he was used, manipulated, possessed - but he was complicit in the initial choice to go along with it.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Sure, Angel saw glances of it. Hell, I'm sure even in the off-screen meeting he saw more because of her depression. But he never saw the whole package, not like Spike did. He saw right up close the dirty and ugly stuff, he was right in the thick of it. Even what he did with that darkness was far from spectacular, he still saw a side of Buffy that had never been that extreme before. Spike saw Buffy brutally beat him up in an alleyway to demonstrate just how much she hated herself. When she thought she killed an innocent human, and immediately tried to turn herself in. And when she nearly committed suicide willingly in OMWF because the world was too hard for her, only to be stopped by Spike. Angel didn't see any of this, a time when certain parts of her character changed forever.


I guess I don't understand your point - because Spike saw some ugly behavior from Buffy because she was suicidally depressed he "gets her more" or understands her more or what?

Because I can't say I agree. I WILL say that Buffy and Angel don't know as much about each other's lives as they should. But if that should ever happen, I believe they will see they are even more connected with more in common with each other than they ever have been.

I don't buy into the notion that because Spike both saw and further advanced the ugliness Buffy went through that that makes the B/S relationship better, more mature, more intimate, more...anything but ugly.

RomancexGirl wrote:
That was most of S6. Buffy had no true investment in him other than guilty using him for sex to "feel" because she could and Spike wanted her so badly. Eventually, by Dead Things, Buffy had developed feelings of care for him. That's why she could not take her using him anymore because it was killing her, it made her feel like a terrible person because she knew Spike's feelings were very real to him. Buffy even admitted towards the end of S6 she did have feelings for Spike, but she didn't love him (Seeing Red). That's one of the reasons she rejected sleeping with him again because it was not as real for her.


Sure, feelings. But not *romantic* feelings. Hell, she went out of her way to avoid that kind of romantic or intimate connection. She didn't sleep with him again because she didn't want to - because she only slept with him before because she was depressed. Healthy Buffy didn't need that crutch.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Think of it like this. If the dream is supposed to be a "perfect dream", then it makes no sense to fantasize over another in a "perfect dream". It's supposed to be perfect, it was designed to be perfect. Fantasizing over another has no place in it, why not just have the person in the dream? Okay, yes no crossovers. But let's ignore that bit. It also doesn't help that he said Buffy's name as an afterthought right when he tried to get away from Cordelia when his soul was leaving.


If it was a "perfect" dream and it was all about his love for Cordelia and he was fantasizing about Cordy and his love and longing for her then it makes NO SENSE that upon waking from that dream, with Cordy fresh on his mind and in his hear that he calls out to BUFFY.

To me, there is no getting around that. It clearly was NOT a perfect dream.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I agree that there was B/A subtext. That's important also. But just because he lost his soul in Cordelia does not mean his love for Buffy was somehow wavering. We have ample proof that it did not.


He never lost his soul in Cordy. He lost his soul in a dream that included much more than Cordy and needed a Shaman to make it happen. Think of it like this - if there was really concern that Angel could lose his soul, would he, Cordy and the rest of their friends REALLY encourage him to pursue a relationship with her?

RomancexGirl wrote:
It's really such a shame to me the WB couldn't overcome their rivalry to allow some more crossovers while the show was on the air.


Agreed. They were quite bitter.

RomancexGirl wrote:
No blinds over my eyes here. I know full-well how terrible Spike could treat the people he claimed to love when he was soulless. He taunted them, forced his affections on them constantly, made them feel like crap. He did that to Buffy especially, I can't even count the number of times. 'Specially in S6. Soulless vampires are just like that. But the difference between Angelus and Spike was still distinct. Spike had less self-respect for himself. He could become so obsessive over a woman, he would sink to any level for them. He literally had no pride because he was so obsessed with the idea of love. It could even be seen that this may be worse than Angelus from a different perspective because despite the terrible things he did, he still claimed he loved them. And unlike Angelus, Spike was so eager for the approval of those he loved, he would even do "good" acts for them (like he did with Buffy in S5). And he was capable of thinking over their well-being over himself. Like he did with "Intervention" and his guilt of not protecting Dawn when Buffy killed herself in "The Gift".


I am happy to see you are able to see this. I'll tell you honestly, this is also why I find it funny when people claim that Angel's love for Buffy was obsessive. It never was - it was SPIKE who was and remained obsessive over Buffy.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I remember creating a thread in another forum about how Spuffy (S5-S6) and Bangelus weren't really that different. I mentioned the parallel on how both Spike and Angelus were entirely obsessed with ruining her life and killing her which was (imo) their way of masking the less antagonistic feelings for her. But the difference was when Spike realized it, he embraced it while Angelus still utterly denied it, went insane, and nearly ended the world. Not like Spuffy exactly, but feel like the obsessive aspects were kinda the same.

Most fans responded negatively to my theory, saying "No, Angelus hates Buffy. It's not like S5-S6 Spuffy at all." I think they missed the part where I said I don't think Angelus is capable of love nor was I trying to say that, but they overlooked the bi-polar affection he seemed to have for her.


I appreciate your points but I have to wonder if people just have different views of love. Soulless love from Spike could often be seen as hate, in my opinion. The idea that Angel had no feelings is also an odd one, imo. Many people claim this but then we see on the show, differing views of the term "humanity", ranging from the love of books and reading (season 2), jealousy and connection (Spike, Dru, Darla), obsession - these are all qualities Angelus has experienced. Does he love? I can't say he does. Then again, I don't believe in Spike's idea of love either while he has no soul, so for me, it's a very minor point of divergence.

Obsession for both, I can agree on. How they deal with that obsession is sometimes the same and sometimes different.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Well, yeah. I wasn't trying to deny that, I was just saying Angelus was like that also. Relax lol, no need to get super technical over a little comment Smile


As you get defensive of Spike, so I get defensive of Angel. Wink

RomancexGirl wrote:
Point taken. Sorry for that, I haven't watched that episode in a while so I don't remember quite everything.


No big.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Depends on the person. Some people are really emotional people and can't always control how upset they are over something. Others are more level-headed and can ignore their feelings of grief if they have something important to do. Angel's usually that type of person. At least when he's occupying himself with some sort of mission. Wolfram & Hart was his mission, Angel wouldn't allow himself to be distracted.


It does depend on the person - but we've seen how Angel reacts to the death of his beloved. It was different for Cordy. The only conclusion I can draw is that it was different because his relationship and feelings were different.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Yes, you explained the kiss. But you never explained how Cordelia is supposedly just a friend to him when he sexually fantasized about her in Awakeningand lost his soul.


I have discussed this actually. I don't have the energy or desire to rehash the points.

RomancexGirl wrote:
And I agree with that, I always believed Cordelia and Angel were better as friends without the complicated drama. Unfortunately, it didn't really stay that way.


It did, before she was not there and then died.

RomancexGirl wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've found it very possible to love two people, I've seen many people in media and real life who say they have. Certain aspects appeal to you in each person, it happens. It seemed the case for Angel to me. And actually, Cordelia and Buffy aren't really that different. Not identical by any means, but I saw similiarities in both of them that would attract Angel.


Again, no big. I did say it was personal opinion/experience.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Well, in my opinion it did. Notice the "in my opinion".


Yes and I was disagreeing as I tend to with you on these issues.

RomancexGirl wrote:
And I do. What, it's suddenly wrong to be open-minded? Confused


Open minded is not the same thing as saying, "well but so-and-so says"...as proof in a debate. You do that a lot. I'm perfectly happy to talk to you about your opinions even when I disagree but I have no desire to battle against the "spuffy" or "c/a" internet mindset. I did that for years and years. I'm over it.


Bottom line is, you feel defensive of Spuffy and Spike and I get it, but I don't know how to fix that for you because I just don't see it the way you did/do AT ALL.

-Luc
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RomancexGirl
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

Where we disagree, apparently, is that I don't think Buffy thought for a second that she couldn't keep Angel around because it wouldn't be fair to Spike or that Angel would ruin anything.

I think she felt it would create problems because she clearly still has this romantic desire and connection to Angel that would not sit well with Spike and she didn't have time or energy for more "vampire jealousy crap".


We never really can be sure. Angel and Buffy were implying an ulterior motive of his departure being because of Spike, but not exactly how it revolved around him. My interpretation of Buffy's character was playing on her responsible side and how obligated she tends to be towards people who do a lot for her. Spike was with her the entire year, he stood by her and she stood by him. Co-dependent or not, it happened. And he had just given her this lovely speech towards her over his love for her in Touched that gave her strength to fight against Caleb after everyone kicked her out. So when Angel arrived, Buffy felt guilty. She knew she loved Angel the most, and after everything Spike had done for her, she could not bear to do that to him. Kind of why she never tells Spike she's not in love with him. It's the guilt and how bad she feels for him.

Don't get me wrong, I also agree with what you said. Buffy gets extremely annoyed with "jealous vampire crap" because she finds it petty, especially when she's in the middle of an apocalypse. No way she'd want to deal with Spike and Angel taunting the hell out of each other because of Buffy (which would happen, everyone knows that). I just don't think that was the only reason.

Imblack21 wrote:

I am sorry if you feel defensive about Spuffy, but for me, that's because I don't see that Spike did much of anything positive for Buffy at ALL until the end when he sacrificed himself to save her and the others. Buffy did a great deal for HIM, certainly, but I don't see much from Spike to Buffy, until the end when he sacrificed himself to save others. I don't feel that their relationship is particularly unique or mature and I have no "aww, poor Spike" pains - so undoubtedly we will butt heads over our interpretations.


I think it's the Spuffy pep talks and how devoted Spike is to Buffy that makes me like it. I know Spike is not the right match for her, but I'm happy to see someone who will do so much for Buffy despite her issues. She's my favorite character, and I really feel she needs reliability like that. If I'm honest, that's probably why I liked Riley too once upon a time. And Angel of course, but it's not only that in his case.

Butting heads over debates is the fun part lol. Wink

Imblack21 wrote:

See, for me, season 7 was worse than season 6 for B/S. B/S in season 6 made sense from a suicidally depressed and lost point of view. But in season 7 it was SUCH a co-dependent relationship where Buffy felt obligated, guilty and responsible for Spike that every other relationship and THAT led to that ridiculous and untrue quote about how he was the only one who had her back. B/S was *horrible* in season 7 because once again, it ONLY HAPPENS by distancing Buffy from literally everyone else in her life. B/S can't coexist in a world where Buffy is healthy, happy AND still connected to other people. And no, I never saw her trying to give him a chance - with her. In fact, quite the opposite as she asked him if that night of comfort "has to mean something".

So really....not such a sharp difference, I don't think. In season 6, Spike said to Buffy that he was the "only one there" for her and that she "had no one else" and in season 7 they literally made that true and all in service of Spike's sacrifice at the end.


When I say it did the ship "tons of favors", I mean it from a "more feelings" point of view in contrast to S6. I never agreed with how disconnected Spuffy makes Buffy to everyone else, that's the one thing about the ship I have never liked. And I don't feel a need to defend that part of ship because it's true. The Spuffy relationship was always unhealthy from the beginning, it made Buffy lose touch with the other people that cared for her because of Spike and his problems. That's been a constant element towards Spuffy, it never changed from S6.

I also felt the need to bold that particular sentence of the quote because it really struck me. Especially in light of the S9 comics. Spike left Buffy in San Francisco for the exact reason you described. Except it was more to do for his sake than for hers. To quote a few things from him in S9:

Spike: "Buffy only comes to me when she needs dark."
--On Your Own, Part One

Spike: "I don't want to go back. To lurking around the edge of your life. Watching from this far above it all 'till you're desperate for someone you can count on."
---Apart (Of Me), Part Three

I feel like you just took the words out of Spike's mouth lol.

Imblack21 wrote:
Another reason I prefer Angel and B/A - because Angel said things like,"I know you don't feel like it now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure it out. And you have people to help you.'You don't have to do this alone."


I know, I love that about Angel so much. Heart He never tried to take her away from her friends and family, because he knows how much she needs it. If Buffy came to him like she did Spike to "flout responsibility" (as Buffy aptly put it in S9), Angel would never let her because it goes against who she is. With Spike ... I just think he's sometimes ignorant and sometimes to desperate for Buffy to do what's right. Depends on the day really.

Imblack21 wrote:
I'm glad to hear that. It might be easier to see it though, if you didn't constantly bring up arguments used by Spuffy or C/A folks. I really don't think any of us here care what they think. They are entitled to see it their way, but we don't need to have their often repeated arguments brought in for us to refute or debate. Hell, if I wanted that still, I'd still be active in the larger fandom. I'm not, for a reason. I don't care how they see it. That's the greatest freedom ever. I'm very happy with how I see it, what I feel about it - I don't need to convince the "other side" that I'm right.


I'm still in the "looking at other opinions of the fandom" phase. I found though that some theories in this fandom about B/A and B/S really shock me, even at times irritate me extremely. I still look at them anyway for the "looking at all sides" thing I mentioned, but some stuff they say against B/A or the glorification of B/S is really hard to swallow. It's amazing how many people can think such totally different things over the same concept. It's sometimes hard to believe we're even looking at the same series.

Imblack21 wrote:

She was victimized yes, but she CHOSE to go with Skip. She bought into the ridiculous notion that she was a higher being and ignored the vision she had of this actually happening. So her choices led to her being taken to a higher realm where she was then victimized. But she was complicit in her downfall. She questioned nothing, just accepted it as her due.

I liken this to Angel accepting what was told to him about Twilight - after he chose to accept it, he was used, manipulated, possessed - but he was complicit in the initial choice to go along with it.


I was also paralleling that to Angel's choice in Twilight when I responded to you the last time, probably why I got a little defensive lol. I can agree to this, because I see what Angel did the same way you do. I feel bad for him and I know he only meant to do the right thing, but he was trying too hard to do it as he often does. Angel has also acknowledged he was responsible for Twilight despite his manipulation because he never asked enough questions, something I think we both agree on.

Cordelia's situation is very much cut from the same cloth. She did try to take everything into her hands, making bad decisions. Like I do with Angel, I feel bad for her but I do see how she was at least somewhat responsible for it. Just from not asking enough questions.

Imblack21 wrote:

I guess I don't understand your point - because Spike saw some ugly behavior from Buffy because she was suicidally depressed he "gets her more" or understands her more or what?


It's a little more complicated than that. I feel like certain aspects of Buffy is something he understands more than Angel, but only just. Spike saw the full extent of Buffy's inner darkness and destruction, hell he even encouraged it once upon a time. Throughout S6, that was what he saw. And it's why Spike is her self-proclaimed "dark place". Spike understands the darkness that frayed bits and pieces of her personality forever, which is also why IMO Buffy goes to him so often when she's feeling isolated or depressed. Spike "gets" that and Buffy's not afraid at how he'd react towards it like she thinks everyone else would.

But being disconnected and cut off from her friends is not what Buffy wants nor is that who she truly is. She's the responsible, courageous woman who can face and overcome her problems. Buffy tends to doubt that because of her inferiority complex, and Spike becomes the blanket that encourages it. And this is where Angel comes on. He's the one that resonates and knows who she truly he is. He's never been her "dark place" or the "key to avoiding life problems". Their relationship has never been about that.

So yes, Spike gets Buffy's darkness. But Angel is the one who knows her values and connects to that. Not the depressed, lonely girl Spike turns her into.

Imblack21 wrote:

Because I can't say I agree. I WILL say Buffy and Angel don't know much about each other's lives as they should. But if that should ever happen, I believe they will see they are even more connected with more common with each other than they ever have been.


I agree with this 100%. It's ironic, but I've felt like their separate journeys and obstacles over the years since their break-up just made them more one in the same than they ever were. It's funny to me because I don't think either Buffy or Angel have realized this yet, but it's true.

Now if only Joss would touch on this in the comics. Have the two spent extended time together for at least a year or so. That's like my biggest hope for S10 right now.

Imblack21 wrote:

Sure, feelings. But not *romantic* feelings. Hell, she went out of her way to avoid that kind of romantic or intimate connection. She didn't sleep with him again because she didn't want to - because she only slept with him before because she was depressed. Healthy Buffy didn't need that crutch.


Buffy still has the sexual feelings for him, if her S8 fantasy was anything to go by. And I've pointed out many instances in S7 that could've indicated romantic feelings. But right, she's not acting on it for a reason. Besides the fact that it'd only complicate her already very complicated life, Buffy still knows her feelings aren't the same for Spike in comparison to how he feels for her. It's her guilt again. Buffy swore ever since she broke off their sexual relationship in S6 that she would never sleep with Spike again unless she knew she was in love with him. And she doesn't want to have a misguided one-night stand with him because it'd just be her using him again. Buffy could never bear to go through that sort of guilt and hurt Spike like that again.

Imblack21 wrote:

If it was a "perfect" dream and it was all about his love for Cordelia and he was fantasizing about Cordy and his love and longing for her then it makes NO SENSE that upon waking from that dream, with Cordy fresh on his mind and in his hear that he calls out to BUFFY.

To me, there is no getting around that. It clearly was NOT a perfect dream.


It does make sense if he realizes he's losing his soul and calls out Buffy by remembering what it felt the last time. Lol, I love how different we think over this.

Imblack21 wrote:

He never lost his soul in Cordy. He lost his soul in a dream that included much more than Cordy and needed a Shaman to make it happen. Think of it like this - if there was really concern that Angel could lose his soul, would he, Cordy and the rest of their friends REALLY encourage him to pursue a relationship with her?


True. And it made a great deal of sense to me for Angel to need much more than Cordy to lose his soul, given his place in that moment of his life and how many things were wrong with it. If it really just took Cordy, then I'd be completely confused. It's way too narrow-minded for Angel's character at the time.

I'm thinking plot-hole. It was stupid of Angel or any of the group to encourage having a relationship with her no matter how lonely he was feeling. Too many risks. It's exactly why Angel's always so intent on being single.

Imblack21 wrote:
I am happy to see you are able to see this. I'll tell you honestly, this is also why I find it funny when people claim that Angel's love for Buffy was obsessive. It never was - it was SPIKE who was and remained obsessive over Buffy.


I've never seen Spike as good when he was soulless, and I violently disagree with anyone who claims otherwise. Spike was not "good", he was still inherently evil. The only reason he did any good was because of Buffy and how much he wanted her to give him a chance. That's all he cared about. Selfish at it's soulless best.

I honestly think most of my Spike love is from sympathy. He's just such a complete train wreck and very underdeveloped. He's not like Angel, mature enough to exist outside of a woman's affections and find direction in his own life. He does not rely on his love for Buffy or his love for her, he can stand on his own ground; Spike can't. He's just drowning in his own dependency on women. And he just seems so immature, he hasn't fully blossomed into what he can be. His obsessive revolving around women makes me feel like I'm looking at a little boy desperate for attention, not some 130-something year old vampire who has purpose.

And no, I can't hate that. Seeing all of his problems just makes me feel really, really sorry for him. Maybe someday he can be like Angel, y'know? If Joss (and the fans) let him.

Imblack21 wrote:

I appreciate your points but I have to wonder if people just have different views of love. Soulless love from Spike could often be seen as hate, in my opinion. The idea that Angel had no feelings is also an odd one, imo. Many people claim this but then we see on the show, differing views of the term "humanity", ranging from the love of books and reading (season 2), jealousy and connection (Spike, Dru, Darla), obsession - these are all qualities Angelus has experienced. Does he love? I can't say he does. Then again, I don't believe in Spike's idea of love either while he has no soul, so for me, it's a very minor point of divergence.

Obsession for both, I can agree on. How they deal with that obsession is sometimes the same and sometimes different.


The term "soulless love" is very murky and complicated. It's hard to fully understand nor is it entirely black-and-white, thanks to Spike and his actions during S5-S6. I get why people can think so differently on this subject, anything's possible after all.

As for me, I often saying Spike loved Buffy when he was soulless. However, I don't mean it like that in the conventional sense. In all honestly, I don't think any vampire is capable of real love without a soul. The soul is the one that causes that to actually be possible, I can't understand why it's possible without it. People say Spike, but nah. It doesn't work for me. If Spike truly loved her, he wouldn't be able to do all of those horrible things to her. Same for Angelus and his tormenting of Buffy. Spike's seemed genuine because of who he was when he was alive ("love-sick fool alive--->twisted love sick fool soulless"), but he's still a soulless vampire.

While I don't believe in soulless love, I do believe in how real it would feel to the vampire in question. And that's what Spike is to me. I don't think he was truly in love with Buffy until he achieved a soul, but when he was soulless the feeling still felt real. And that feeling was sick, twisted, delusional obsession. The closest thing to love possible for a soulless vamp. And yes, I do think, in a roundabout way, this is also the case for Angelus. But he's not like Spike, so you shouldn't expect him to act that same way. Some fans don't really get that, but eh whatever suits them.

Imblack21 wrote:
As you get defensive of Spike, so I get defensive of Angel. Wink


Lol, I can relate. You haven't seen me when I'm full-on defensive mood over Angel. I actually think I'm way more defensive of him that I am of Spike. Spike's cool, but Angel's the best. Heart
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:

We never really can be sure.


We can only be sure of what we think and feel about the text. Ultimately, that's all the matters. Every viewer has a different view. But I'm happy and confident enough in my own.

RomancexGirl wrote:

Angel and Buffy were implying an ulterior motive of his departure being because of Spike, but not exactly how it revolved around him.


Well, Angel did, Buffy not so much. But that's nit-picking.

RomancexGirl wrote:

My interpretation of Buffy's character was playing on her responsible side and how obligated she tends to be towards people who do a lot for her. Spike was with her the entire year, he stood by her and she stood by him.


I agree that Buffy is a person who takes her responsibilities seriously and Spike had become her responsibility so she absolutely took that on. He was the Dawn of season 7 but in a much more disturbing way.

RomancexGirl wrote:

Co-dependent or not, it happened. And he had just given her this lovely speech towards her over his love for her in Touched that gave her strength to fight against Caleb after everyone kicked her out. So when Angel arrived, Buffy felt guilty. She knew she loved Angel the most, and after everything Spike had done for her, she could not bear to do that to him. Kind of why she never tells Spike she's not in love with him. It's the guilt and how bad she feels for him.


Yes, it happened. And yes, that speech was nice. Not original, exactly, but still nice. I just find it unfortunate that it could *only* happen after everyone else turned on her. It's things like that which keep me from taking the B/S relationship very seriously. It happens because of context, not organically, not just because it's what they both want.

I don't honestly see her making the decision to send Angel away because she was thinking of Spike's feelings so much as the situation as a whole though, that's what I mean. It would have been confusing for her and problematic for both Angel and Spike.

The original script actually said that and I think it's a shame they cut it:

BUFFY: It's not the brush off. Having both of you here would be... confusing.

ANGEL: For who?

BUFFY: Everybody! Why are you so -- Are you gonna come by and get all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?


Buffy was trying to do right by everyone - as she always does.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I think it's the Spuffy pep talks and how devoted Spike is to Buffy that makes me like it. I know Spike is not the right match for her, but I'm happy to see someone who will do so much for Buffy despite her issues. She's my favorite character, and I really feel she needs reliability like that. If I'm honest, that's probably why I liked Riley too once upon a time. And Angel of course, but it's not only that in his case.


See, but he's not the only one to give pep talks. In fact, I can only remember the one and that was in "Touched". Yes, he's always there but I don't' think he's always there "for her". He's obsessive more than devoted and it's creepy and annoying to me. Ironically, he acts the way many B/S fans say Angel did, though this was never true, imo.

Buffy is also my favorite character and that's why I dislike Spike so much. Too much damage was done to my favorite character as a result of Spike. The resentment lingers over that. It's not because my ship suffered, because it didn't. My favorite character did though.

RomancexGirl wrote:

Butting heads over debates is the fun part lol. Wink


I can be but I've been in fandom for simply years and get exhausted by it so pardon me if I'm sometimes a bit snippy. It's the same old tired debates over and over.

RomancexGirl wrote:

When I say it did the ship "tons of favors", I mean it from a "more feelings" point of view in contrast to S6. I never agreed with how disconnected Spuffy makes Buffy to everyone else, that's the one thing about the ship I have never liked. And I don't feel a need to defend that part of ship because it's true. The Spuffy relationship was always unhealthy from the beginning, it made Buffy lose touch with the other people that cared for her because of Spike and his problems. That's been a constant element towards Spuffy, it never changed from S6.


I get what you mean, I do. I guess that, once again, we just have a different perspective. The fact that Buffy went from suicidally depressed and using him to feeling guilt and responsibility for him doesn't strike me as doing any favors to the ship or the people who ship it. It is nice to see that not all who are fond of the ship don't feel the need to defend the codependent nature of it though.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I know, I love that about Angel so much. Heart He never tried to take her away from her friends and family, because he knows how much she needs it. If Buffy came to him like she did Spike to "flout responsibility" (as Buffy aptly put it in S9), Angel would never let her because it goes against who she is. With Spike ... I just think he's sometimes ignorant and sometimes to desperate for Buffy to do what's right. Depends on the day really.


Yes, exactly. This is why I don't find Spike's version of devotion to Buffy to be all that romantic or good - because he wants to be her everything - he wants her to leave all else behind and just be with him. It's ooky to me and this was exhibited in season 9 comics too. Just....no.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I'm still in the "looking at other opinions of the fandom" phase. I found though that some theories in this fandom about B/A and B/S really shock me, even at times irritate me extremely. I still look at them anyway for the "looking at all sides" thing I mentioned, but some stuff they say against B/A or the glorification of B/S is really hard to swallow. It's amazing how many people can think such totally different things over the same concept. It's sometimes hard to believe we're even looking at the same series.


Having been in the fandom since the end of season 5 I can say I am no longer in that phase so good luck! LMAO. Sadly, nothing shocks me anymore. I've seen some truly ugly things.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I was also paralleling that to Angel's choice in Twilight when I responded to you the last time, probably why I got a little defensive lol. I can agree to this, because I see what Angel did the same way you do. I feel bad for him and I know he only meant to do the right thing, but he was trying too hard to do it as he often does. Angel has also acknowledged he was responsible for Twilight despite his manipulation because he never asked enough questions, something I think we both agree on.

Cordelia's situation is very much cut from the same cloth. She did try to take everything into her hands, making bad decisions. Like I do with Angel, I feel bad for her but I do see how she was at least somewhat responsible for it. Just from not asking enough questions.


In many ways, Cordelia is even more responsible because she literally got a vision of herself saying those things and when it happened she ignored the vision and just...went with it. Cordy has never gotten visions that were meant to happen - they were given to her to help prevent things from happening. Angel didn't have even that much to guide his actions, though yes, both chose the path they did because they thought it was the right thing to do.

RomancexGirl wrote:

It's a little more complicated than that. I feel like certain aspects of Buffy is something he understands more than Angel, but only just. Spike saw the full extent of Buffy's inner darkness and destruction, hell he even encouraged it once upon a time. Throughout S6, that was what he saw. And it's why Spike is her self-proclaimed "dark place". Spike understands the darkness that frayed bits and pieces of her personality forever, which is also why IMO Buffy goes to him so often when she's feeling isolated or depressed. Spike "gets" that and Buffy's not afraid at how he'd react towards it like she thinks everyone else would.


The problem with this, I guess, is that Buffy ONLY sees Spike this way and it's why it's still so unhealthy. He's a crutch to her, though fortunately in season 9 she seemed to be realizing that and refused to take the same path, which is why she briefly considering running away with him and then refused to give in to the same darkness and co-dependence.

Progress, I guess.

RomancexGirl wrote:

But being disconnected and cut off from her friends is not what Buffy wants nor is that who she truly is. She's the responsible, courageous woman who can face and overcome her problems. Buffy tends to doubt that because of her inferiority complex, and Spike becomes the blanket that encourages it. And this is where Angel comes on. He's the one that resonates and knows who she truly he is. He's never been her "dark place" or the "key to avoiding life problems". Their relationship has never been about that.


Yes. Agreement!!! YAY!

RomancexGirl wrote:

So yes, Spike gets Buffy's darkness. But Angel is the one who knows her values and connects to that. Not the depressed, lonely girl Spike turns her into.


Go, Angel!!

RomancexGirl wrote:

I agree with this 100%. It's ironic, but I've felt like their separate journeys and obstacles over the years since their break-up just made them more one in the same than they ever were. It's funny to me because I don't think either Buffy or Angel have realized this yet, but it's true.


So much agreement I'm starting to worry. lolol

RomancexGirl wrote:

Now if only Joss would touch on this in the comics. Have the two spent extended time together for at least a year or so. That's like my biggest hope for S10 right now.


Honestly, it's probably the only way I'd become interested in the comics again.

RomancexGirl wrote:

Buffy still has the sexual feelings for him, if her S8 fantasy was anything to go by.


Sexual, yes.

RomancexGirl wrote:

And I've pointed out many instances in S7 that could've indicated romantic feelings.


I never saw it though - not from Buffy. So this is just a different interpretation of her actions.


RomancexGirl wrote:

But right, she's not acting on it for a reason. Besides the fact that it'd only complicate her already very complicated life, Buffy still knows her feelings aren't the same for Spike in comparison to how he feels for her. It's her guilt again. Buffy swore ever since she broke off their sexual relationship in S6 that she would never sleep with Spike again unless she knew she was in love with him. And she doesn't want to have a misguided one-night stand with him because it'd just be her using him again. Buffy could never bear to go through that sort of guilt and hurt Spike like that again.


I appreciate where you're going with this, but Buffy never swore she'd never sleep with him again unless she knew she was in love with him.

Though I do agree that she just doesn't have any interest in using him for sex because he's made it clear that his feelings for her have remained unchanged while she is still not romantically interested in him.

RomancexGirl wrote:

It does make sense if he realizes he's losing his soul and calls out Buffy by remembering what it felt the last time. Lol, I love how different we think over this.


Beating a dead horse here. He should be calling out *Cordy's* name if he's in love with Cordy and losing his soul while he's with her. Nobody has ever been able to explain why, when he thought he was losing his soul after sleeping with Darla in season 2 he never called out to Buffy. This is why that reasoning just completely falls apart.

But like I said...dead horse.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I've never seen Spike as good when he was soulless, and I violently disagree with anyone who claims otherwise. Spike was not "good", he was still inherently evil. The only reason he did any good was because of Buffy and how much he wanted her to give him a chance. That's all he cared about. Selfish at it's soulless best.


Yes.

RomancexGirl wrote:

I honestly think most of my Spike love is from sympathy. He's just such a complete train wreck and very underdeveloped. He's not like Angel, mature enough to exist outside of a woman's affections and find direction in his own life. He does not rely on his love for Buffy or his love for her, he can stand on his own ground; Spike can't. He's just drowning in his own dependency on women. And he just seems so immature, he hasn't fully blossomed into what he can be. His obsessive revolving around women makes me feel like I'm looking at a little boy desperate for attention, not some 130-something year old vampire who has purpose.

And no, I can't hate that. Seeing all of his problems just makes me feel really, really sorry for him. Maybe someday he can be like Angel, y'know? If Joss (and the fans) let him.


I could more easily have sympathy and understanding for this IF he didn't come across as so emotionally manipulative and selfish and IF it hadn't caused so much damage to Buffy and, as a resulting wave, so much damage to every other relationship Buffy had with characters I loved.

I didn't use to hate Spike. He was fun and funny and I enjoyed him - until season 6/7 happened. I flirted with B/S until episodes like "Crush" and the creepy disgusting sex doll of Buffy and, and, and..

My hatred of Spike and B/S didn't happen because of my love for Angel or B/A. It happened because of Spike, because of B/S and because Buffy is my girl and she deserved SO much better. Still does.

RomancexGirl wrote:

As for me, I often saying Spike loved Buffy when he was soulless. However, I don't mean it like that in the conventional sense. In all honestly, I don't think any vampire is capable of real love without a soul. The soul is the one that causes that to actually be possible, I can't understand why it's possible without it. People say Spike, but nah. It doesn't work for me. If Spike truly loved her, he wouldn't be able to do all of those horrible things to her. Same for Angelus and his tormenting of Buffy. Spike's seemed genuine because of who he was when he was alive ("love-sick fool alive--->twisted love sick fool soulless"), but he's still a soulless vampire.


Yes.

RomancexGirl wrote:

While I don't believe in soulless love, I do believe in how real it would feel to the vampire in question. And that's what Spike is to me. I don't think he was truly in love with Buffy until he achieved a soul, but when he was soulless the feeling still felt real. And that feeling was sick, twisted, delusional obsession. The closest thing to love possible for a soulless vamp. And yes, I do think, in a roundabout way, this is also the case for Angelus. But he's not like Spike, so you shouldn't expect him to act that same way. Some fans don't really get that, but eh whatever suits them.


Oh I've no doubt it felt real to him - it WAS real to him, but he discovered the real thing after he got his soul. That's why even Buffy said, "I think it is real - for you".

RomancexGirl wrote:

Lol, I can relate. You haven't seen me when I'm full-on defensive mood over Angel. I actually think I'm way more defensive of him that I am of Spike. Spike's cool, but Angel's the best. Heart


Angel and Buffy...what can you do? LOL

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

We can only be sure of what we think and feel about the text. Ultimately, that's all the matters. Every viewer has a different view. But I'm happy and confident enough in my own.


Same. We all follow the same series, but we can see things however we want to see them.

Imblack21 wrote:

Well, Angel did, Buffy not so much. But that's nit-picking.


Lol, true. I just feel Buffy's the type to deny something like that if it's wrong, y'know?

Imblack21 wrote:

I agree that Buffy is a person who takes her responsibilities seriously and Spike had become her responsibility so she absolutely took that on. He was the Dawn of season 7 but in a much more disturbing way.


I sometimes think Buffy's a little too responsible for her own good. If anything bad happens to someone she cares for, she feels responsible for it. She's very easily guilt-tripped, it's honestly not much of a surprise she forgave Spike and took him on. There is only one person in the world Buffy blames the most for things, and that's herself. I love her character, but she's so hard on herself.

Imblack21 wrote:

Yes, it happened. And yes, that speech was nice. Not original, exactly, but still nice. I just find it unfortunate that it could *only* happen after everyone else turned on her. It's things like that which keep me from taking the B/S relationship very seriously. It happens because of context, not organically, not just because it's what they both want.

I don't honestly see her making the decision to send Angel away because she was thinking of Spike's feelings so much as the situation as a whole though, that's what I mean. It would have been confusing for her and problematic for both Angel and Spike.


I understand that. I found that moment very beautiful, but it does bother me as well about how it got there. And then in the next episode when Buffy makes up with her friends, she does that "Spike's the only one who got my back" quote. I was always so disappointed over how Buffy could lose so much trust in her friends. They lost trust in her too eventually, it just made me upset. Sure they got over it, but it still seems like they never really recovered from Empty Places.

Well, Spike's the number one person good at guilt-tripping her, right? Seems in character to me, given Buffy's responsibility and selflessness. I prefer to believe that one, just because it shows how much she cares for others. Not that I disagree with your reasoning either, really.

Imblack21 wrote:
Buffy was trying to do right by everyone - as she always does.


Huh, wonder why the script cut that out. I also heard Joss originally planned to tell Buffy about his thing with Cordelia and having a son, Connor. I really wish that happened, I always wanted to see Buffy's reaction to Angel having a son with someone else. She really deserved to know that. And the Cordelia thing ... same. I'm not sure if she'd be jealous over it or just uncomfortable.

Imblack21 wrote:

See, but he's not the only one to give pep talks. In fact, I can only remember the one and that was in "Touched". Yes, he's always there but I don't' think he's always there "for her". He's obsessive more than devoted and it's creepy and annoying to me. Ironically, he acts the way many B/S fans say Angel did, though this was never true, imo.

Buffy is also my favorite character and that's why I dislike Spike so much. Too much damage was done to my favorite character as a result of Spike. The resentment lingers over that. It's not because my ship suffered, because it didn't. My favorite character did though.


No denying that, all of the characters did some great pep talks at least once. Xander and Giles are particularly famous of those, hell even Riley. As for a few more of Spike's shiny moments, I can think of one in After Life when Spike expressed his guilt for not being able to protect Dawn and for Buffy to swan dive. He told Buffy he dreamed every night after that of finding a way to save her. "Every night I save you" and all that. And then of course, this:

Spike: "Life isn't bliss. Life is just this. It's living. You feel alone ... the pain that you feel will only just heal ... by living. You have to go on living. So one of us is living."
--Once More, With Feeling

I see Spike as obsessive as well, but I still see devotion in it. His love for Buffy just takes up his entire character, he's so far only been designed for a love interest role. Spike can change out of his hopefully.

Depends on perspective. Some fans love Buffy just as much as you and I do, yet they believe Spike's the best match for her and are not that too fond of Angel. As for me, I don't see Spike as the right vamp for her. I feel sorry for him because of it, but he's not that great a match for Buffy at all.

Yep, Spuffy definitely didn't threaten Bangel. While it's debatable whether or not she fell in love with him, I still do not believe she loved him more than she loves Angel. Just ... no. Show me is all I can say.

Imblack21 wrote:

I can be but I've been in fandom for simply years and get exhausted by it so pardon me if I'm sometimes a bit snippy. It's the same old tired debates over and over.


I understand the feeling. I'm up for any good debate over B/A, B/S, or C/A. But eventually, it either ends up in exhaustion or intense arguments not of the pleasant kind. I found this happens against opposing ships the most, one of the main reasons I can never continue debating with them for long. 'Specially if they never consider any of what I say as a possibility. *sigh*

Imblack21 wrote:

I get what you mean, I do. I guess that, once again, we just have a different perspective. The fact that Buffy went from suicidally depressed and using him to feeling guilt and responsibility for him doesn't strike me as doing any favors to the ship or the people who ship it. It is nice to see that not all who are fond of the ship don't feel the need to defend the codependent nature of it though.


I'm not big on lying to myself when I think something unpleasant of a ship shows through. And I've never lied to myself about Spuffy because of the multiple sides of damage it does to both characters. I'm more focused on Buffy's side, but Spike's has always been the most obvious damage when it comes to the unhealthiness of S/B. Probably also why I end up feeling bad for him.

Again, just referring to feelings. "Feelings" does not automatically mean "Healthy".

Imblack21 wrote:

Yes, exactly. This is why I don't find Spike's version of devotion to Buffy to be all that romantic or good - because he wants to be her everything - he wants her to leave all else behind and just be with him. It's ooky to me and this was exhibited in season 9 comics too. Just....no.


When I first realized this, it's when I knew that Spuffy would never have a happy ending together. Sure, Spike loves Buffy. And Buffy deeply cares for him. But what they want and don't want from life is just too different to make things work. Buffy is not the type of person to give her everything to someone like Spike who is so needy and emotional. She can't just drop everything for him, she has other things in life she cares about and responsibilities she values too highly to abandon. Honestly, Spike's a lot like Riley that way. Riley had a massive insecurity complex and wanted to be Buffy's white knight, her "everything". And, similarly, Buffy could not do that then either. Their lives, in both ships, just did not fit together.

In this particular case, I feel like Buffy works better with someone who shares the same values. Spike is just too different. And that's also why I prefer B/A. Angel's very much like Buffy is, more so than Spike is. They are the big responsible types that always focus very highly on what's right. That's why Angel would click with Buffy in situations like S9 that Spike failed to do for her. Encourage her to do her duties because it means so much to her. Buffy eventually found her footing by herself, but Spike was still tempting her to go against who she really is. Angel does not, and rarely ever has.

Buffy's personality just works with someone who's like her. Right now that's Angel.

Imblack21 wrote:

Having been in the fandom since the end of season 5 I can say I am no longer in that phase so good luck! LMAO. Sadly, nothing shocks me anymore. I've seen some truly ugly things.


You're a long time Buffy fan lol, I'm still a newbie in comparisons. I only joined the fandom two years ago. I feel sorry for you, considering you were around when at the height of Spuffy's popularity. Oh, the intense Bangel vs. Spuffy debates you've must've seen ... wow. I'm very glad I missed that, I've heard how bad they were back then. Still kinda are sometimes if you know where to look.

Imblack21 wrote:

In many ways, Cordelia is even more responsible because she literally got a vision of herself saying those things and when it happened she ignored the vision and just...went with it. Cordy has never gotten visions that were meant to happen - they were given to her to help prevent things from happening. Angel didn't have even that much to guide his actions, though yes, both chose the path they did because they thought it was the right thing to do.


Good point. I still feel sorry for her, but I can see how she's responsible. I'm still constantly torn over how I feel about Angel's involvement in Twilight. On one side, I know he caused some deaths and a lot of other bad choices. But then part of me's like "It was Whistler! He trusted him because he gave him a purpose. Of course he'd fall for it", "Whistler said the world would go to Hell if he didn't and Buffy would die" or "He didn't know what would happen, he never wanted this ..."

It's weird. I blame him for it, but then I don't. I can't tell if it's my Angel bias coloring my judgment or it I'm just overly sympathetic.

Imblack21 wrote:

The problem with this, I guess, is that Buffy ONLY sees Spike this way and it's why it's still so unhealthy. He's a crutch to her, though fortunately in season 9 she seemed to be realizing that and refused to take the same path, which is why she briefly considering running away with him and then refused to give in to the same darkness and co-dependence.


I was proud of Buffy for getting herself out of her "dark place". I know her life's hard and she was particularly stressed when she considered running away with Spike (No duh, she thought she was pregnant ...), but it's proving she's growing up in this particular aspect.

I remember Spike said in the issue that he couldn't believe she would consider running away with him to raise her baby as her first option, and then Buffy said something too honest, and Spike got pissed/hurt because he realized he was still the "bloke she goes to when she's in a jam". He apparently wanted to believe he could take care of Buffy and help her raise the kid if she was actually pregnant. One of those instances I felt bad for him again.

Imblack21 wrote:

Honestly, it's probably the only way I'd become interested in the comics again.


I'm not going to get overly optimistic over it, but I think it's a little more possible this time around. The writer of A&F confirmed a S10, but avoided answering if A&F would have another round. Maybe Faith may just go her own separate way from Angel, but it could also mean Angel might move to Buffy S10 for a while. I've been thinking this more and more lately because I don't think Joss can repair the Bangel relationship in just a few meetings. A little unrealistic, y'know? B/A's gonna need a whole season to fix itself, not some quick little reunions. Or at least that's what I hope. I want Buffy to forgive Angel, but not too quickly. He did seriously screw up, after all. And Buffy got caused a lot of pain because of it as well.

Imblack21 wrote:

I never saw it though - not from Buffy. So this is just a different interpretation of her actions.


I respect that. We're free to think whatever over Spuffy and how mutual it actually is.

Imblack21 wrote:

I appreciate where you're going with this, but Buffy never swore she'd never sleep with him again unless she knew she was in love with him.

Though I do agree that she just doesn't have any interest in using him for sex because he's made it clear that his feelings for her have remained unchanged while she is still not romantically interested in him.


Maybe not the exact words, but Buffy's actions towards Spike have always heavily implied it before she actually said something along those lines.

Spike: "Why won't you sleep with me again?"
Buffy: " ... Because I don't love you."
---Normal Again

Yes, I don't think Buffy would be nearly as reserved to sleep with Spike if he didn't keep showering her with his "undying love and affection." No way she would want to use him like that again, it makes her feel horrible. Just reopens old guilt wounds.

Imblack21 wrote:
Beating a dead horse here. He should be calling out *Cordy's* name if he's in love with Cordy and losing his soul while he's with her. Nobody has ever been able to explain why, when he thought he was losing his soul after sleeping with Darla in season 2 he never called out to Buffy. This is why that reasoning just completely falls apart.

But like I said...dead horse.


It's more than beating a dead horse. The horse has turned into charcoal by this point. Lol, I think we've both grown tired of debating this point. Let's just agree to disagree. This one especially comes down to personal opinion, after all. There's not really much to it than that.

Imblack21 wrote:

I could more easily have sympathy and understanding for this IF he didn't come across as so emotionally manipulative and selfish and IF it hadn't caused so much damage to Buffy and, as a resulting wave, so much damage to every other relationship Buffy had with characters I loved.

I didn't use to hate Spike. He was fun and funny and I enjoyed him - until season 6/7 happened. I flirted with B/S until episodes like "Crush" and the creepy disgusting sex doll of Buffy and, and, and..

My hatred of Spike and B/S didn't happen because of my love for Angel or B/A. It happened because of Spike, because of B/S and because Buffy is my girl and she deserved SO much better. Still does.


I wouldn't like Spike if I thought the only thing he has going for him is manipulation and selfishness. I know Spike is a selfish person, and I know his love for Buffy is usually more selfish than selfless (aside from some situations). But I like his loyalty and as I said, Spike reminds me of a little boy. He's immature and all he wants is to love and be loved. If he actually got that for once, maybe he wouldn't act out in such a terrible manner. He has the potential to be a great partner in a relationship .... to someone who's not Buffy. She's too distant and can never fulfill his high emotional needs.

Though my sympathy does not blind me to when Spike's at fault. He makes a lot of bad choices recklessly, and never thinks about it until it already blows up in his face and he has no idea why. That's basically his behavior pattern, I've been noticing that a lot lately.

Amazingly, I've never hated Spike for long. I found him a funny villain for the first four seasons before all his Buffy drama (which ironically, took a large toll on his self-confidence). I started to feel bad for him by S5 until that disgusting Buffybot episode. And then he protected Dawn for Buffy. Eventually, my sympathy returned. S6 was difficult for me though, for many reasons. I was furious with Spike for taking advantage of Buffy and her weak frame of mind, but I also saw he knew he was being used deep down but allowed it because it was "better than nothing". It was just so pathetic ... I still found it in me to feel bad for him. Still hated Spuffy back then though. And then the rape happened. Hated Spike right, then, and there. But S7 came and I fell back into my Spike sympathy rut. Haven't managed to claw out of it.

I'll re-analyze Spike and Spuffy a little more deeply when I get to it's run in my re-watch to see just how much Spike was intentionally selfish, wasn't selfish, or was unknowingly selfish. I don't think my opinion will ever change enough to make me hate Spuffy or Spike, but I'm curious to see it with a different perspective in mind. Who knows, it may open my eyes a little.

Imblack21 wrote:
Angel and Buffy...what can you do? LOL


Angel and Buffy are just my babies lol ... I'd defend those two forever. Heart
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:


I sometimes think Buffy's a little too responsible for her own good. If anything bad happens to someone she cares for, she feels responsible for it. She's very easily guilt-tripped, it's honestly not much of a surprise she forgave Spike and took him on. There is only one person in the world Buffy blames the most for things, and that's herself. I love her character, but she's so hard on herself.


Agreed. Her and Angel have this in common and I often wish they'd cut themselves some slack but I suppose it's part of the reason why I'm so drawn to them and so protective of them.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I understand that. I found that moment very beautiful, but it does bother me as well about how it got there. And then in the next episode when Buffy makes up with her friends, she does that "Spike's the only one who got my back" quote. I was always so disappointed over how Buffy could lose so much trust in her friends. They lost trust in her too eventually, it just made me upset. Sure they got over it, but it still seems like they never really recovered from Empty Places.


Actually the quote about how only Spike had her back came before the Touched speech - it's part of what led to the whole breakdown of the SG. It actually would have made more sense if she'd said that to them AFTER they kicked her out.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Huh, wonder why the script cut that out. I also heard Joss originally planned to tell Buffy about his thing with Cordelia and having a son, Connor. I really wish that happened, I always wanted to see Buffy's reaction to Angel having a son with someone else. She really deserved to know that. And the Cordelia thing ... same. I'm not sure if she'd be jealous over it or just uncomfortable.


Actually, that's not true about the Cordy/Connor convo. That is a fandom misrepresentation. At the time the entire Chosen script was leaked online, someone who wasn't happy with it wrote their own version and in THAT version, it included the Cordy/Connor convo - but it was never Joss' intention to bring it up. They only had DB for 10 hours which amounted to about 10-15 minutes of screentime - not enough time to get into the Cordy/Connor drama.

RomancexGirl wrote:
I'm not big on lying to myself when I think something unpleasant of a ship shows through. And I've never lied to myself about Spuffy because of the multiple sides of damage it does to both characters. I'm more focused on Buffy's side, but Spike's has always been the most obvious damage when it comes to the unhealthiness of S/B. Probably also why I end up feeling bad for him.


I'm confused, what do you mean the most obvious damage was done to Spike? Can you clarify? Cause if you mean that as it sounds then I just could never agree. He got SO much benefit from his association with Buffy and the SG.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Again, just referring to feelings. "Feelings" does not automatically mean "Healthy".


Sure, but if it's not healthy then it's not really a benefit or favor to the B/S ship.

RomancexGirl wrote:
When I first realized this, it's when I knew that Spuffy would never have a happy ending together. Sure, Spike loves Buffy. And Buffy deeply cares for him. But what they want and don't want from life is just too different to make things work. Buffy is not the type of person to give her everything to someone like Spike who is so needy and emotional. She can't just drop everything for him, she has other things in life she cares about and responsibilities she values too highly to abandon. Honestly, Spike's a lot like Riley that way. Riley had a massive insecurity complex and wanted to be Buffy's white knight, her "everything". And, similarly, Buffy could not do that then either. Their lives, in both ships, just did not fit together.


Yes, the parallels between the B/S and the B/R ship are numerous.

RomancexGirl wrote:
You're a long time Buffy fan lol, I'm still a newbie in comparisons. I only joined the fandom two years ago. I feel sorry for you, considering you were around when at the height of Spuffy's popularity. Oh, the intense Bangel vs. Spuffy debates you've must've seen ... wow. I'm very glad I missed that, I've heard how bad they were back then. Still kinda are sometimes if you know where to look.


It was intense and not always pretty but I had fun and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I made some really incredible friends that became friends in real life, had experiences that otherwise would not have happened, traveled with B/A pals, met many of the cast and crew - all of these memories are priceless to me.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Maybe not the exact words, but Buffy's actions towards Spike have always heavily implied it before she actually said something along those lines.

Spike: "Why won't you sleep with me again?"
Buffy: " ... Because I don't love you."
---Normal Again

Yes, I don't think Buffy would be nearly as reserved to sleep with Spike if he didn't keep showering her with his "undying love and affection." No way she would want to use him like that again, it makes her feel horrible. Just reopens old guilt wounds.


I totally forgot about this. But you're right, it's interesting because being in love is not a prerequisite for Buffy to sleep with someone - as witnessed with Parker, Riley and Satsu. But yes, she wouldn't sleep with Spike again because she only did it to begin with because she felt nothing and she knows he has feelings for her she doesn't share. She won't use him or lead him on.

RomancexGirl wrote:
He has the potential to be a great partner in a relationship .... to someone who's not Buffy. She's too distant and can never fulfill his high emotional needs.


He only has potential, in my opinion, if he gets a life outside of his partner. Buffy is not too distant when she's really in love - witness Angel. Spike needs to be able to really form relationships and friendships and get a mission of his own to become a fully realized, fully developed person so that he STOPS being so emotionally needy in a relationship.

RomancexGirl wrote:
Angel and Buffy are just my babies lol ... I'd defend those two forever. Heart


Clearly, me too. Heart Heart

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

Actually the quote about how only Spike had her back came before the Touched speech - it's part of what led to the whole breakdown of the SG. It actually would have made more sense if she'd said that to them AFTER they kicked her out.


Well, that just makes that quote 10x more infuriating and wrong. God, why did Buffy have to become so paranoid to the point she didn't even really trust her friends? *sigh*

Imblack21 wrote:

Actually, that's not true about the Cordy/Connor convo. That is a fandom misrepresentation. At the time the entire Chosen script was leaked online, someone who wasn't happy with it wrote their own version and in THAT version, it included the Cordy/Connor convo - but it was never Joss' intention to bring it up. They only had DB for 10 hours which amounted to about 10-15 minutes of screentime - not enough time to get into the Cordy/Connor drama.


Whether it's true or not, I still nonetheless wished it happened. If not the Cordelia bit, then at least the Connor part. It always had this nagging suspicion Angel did not tell her he had a son for a long time, and I really felt that Buffy deserved to know that. Hopefully, she knows now in the comics, but I don't think she did on the TV series.

Imblack21 wrote:

I'm confused, what do you mean the most obvious damage was done to Spike? Can you clarify? Cause if you mean that as it sounds then I just could never agree. He got SO much benefit from his association with Buffy and the SG.


'Spuffy is an odd juxtapose of contradictions' is what I mean. It had a positive effect on Spike's character, but a negative effect as well. Sure, Buffy changed Spike and molded him into a champion for the people. She made him realize through his love for her that he wanted to be more than a monster, he wanted to be a man. And Buffy made him feel close to someone in a way he never felt before. All good, little prizes for Spikey. Here's the bad. Buffy constantly makes Spike miserable. She always has right from the beginning. Spike angsts and suffers because he can never get a shot at her. He repeatedly fails, and it just weighs on him. Spike does not regret loving Buffy by a long shot, but his feelings make him unhappy. Buffy also took a amazing toll on his self-esteem and confidence more than ever, his insecurities just inflate themselves.

Spike's damage to himself is way more obvious because he's more vocal and expressive with it, unlike Buffy where you have to really pay attention to pick it up. I think this is why some Spuffy fans are convinced Spike's good for Buffy. Her character damage is more subtle.

Imblack21 wrote:

Yes, the parallels between the B/S and the B/R ship are numerous.


Though I feel the difference is that Buffy opened up to Spike a little more and that while Spike does want to be her everything, I still feel like he's a little less demanding of her than Riley was. Just a little.

Imblack21 wrote:
I totally forgot about this. But you're right, it's interesting because being in love is not a prerequisite for Buffy to sleep with someone - as witnessed with Parker, Riley and Satsu. But yes, she wouldn't sleep with Spike again because she only did it to begin with because she felt nothing and she knows he has feelings for her she doesn't share. She won't use him or lead him on.


Glad we're on agreement on this. I just feel Buffy's especially reluctant to sleep with Spike because she felt so particularly horrible using him during her depression and everything else she did to him. Buffy never knowingly used Riley because she truly thought at the time she loved him. She knowingly used Satsu for sex, but never continued it for months at a time. Just a two-night stand. And it's also interesting to point out Buffy felt guilty for assuming Spike was over her in S9, as she had considered raising a baby with him to help her get away from her stressful slayer life. Buffy did not wanna take advantage of him there either, as she could see how he may think she was leading him on.

Buffy's other reservation is apparently because Spike's not her key to a normal life, being a vampire and all. She even told him so in S9. Which is funny, because Buffy doesn't care as much about this when it comes to Angel.

Imblack21 wrote:

He only has potential, in my opinion, if he gets a life outside of his partner. Buffy is not too distant when she's really in love - witness Angel. Spike needs to be able to really form relationships and friendships and get a mission of his own to become a fully realized, fully developed person so that he STOPS being so emotionally needy in a relationship.


Agreed 100%. That's the best case scenario for his character in the long run, clinging to his love interests only so obsessively will get him nowhere and eventually drive them away. At least that's what his track record dictates.
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janas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:

Whether it's true or not, I still nonetheless wished it happened. If not the Cordelia bit, then at least the Connor part. It always had this nagging suspicion Angel did not tell her he had a son for a long time, and I really felt that Buffy deserved to know that. Hopefully, she knows now in the comics, but I don't think she did on the TV series.


Talk about Connor in Chosen, it was really time less appropriate. Just a few hours before, Connor had disappeared into the oblivion of his new happy life, where no one remembered that he had never existed. Don't forget that both Willow and Faith knew about the Angel's son, and probably, Angel couldn't risk talking about him, because this would endanger his new life in the Reilly family. However, Scott Allie recently said that Buffy knows the existence of Connor, therefore at some point, Angel has certainly talked to Buffy about his son.
Quote:
'Spuffy is an odd juxtapose of contradictions' is what I mean. It had a positive effect on Spike's character, but a negative effect as well. Sure, Buffy changed Spike and molded him into a champion for the people. She made him realize through his love for her that he wanted to be more than a monster, he wanted to be a man. And Buffy made him feel close to someone in a way he never felt before. All good, little prizes for Spikey. Here's the bad. Buffy constantly makes Spike miserable. She always has right from the beginning. Spike angsts and suffers because he can never get a shot at her.

I donít understand this reasoning. If Buffy gave to Spike the means for changing, to become a better man etc. ..because simply he doesnít use them for move forward on with her life?
It's like wasting a gift and throw everything to the wind. It isn't Buffy that constantly makes Spike miserable, isnít the fault of Buffy if he cannot live alone. Because it must always be stuck to the skirt of a woman?
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janas wrote:

Quote:
'Spuffy is an odd juxtapose of contradictions' is what I mean. It had a positive effect on Spike's character, but a negative effect as well. Sure, Buffy changed Spike and molded him into a champion for the people. She made him realize through his love for her that he wanted to be more than a monster, he wanted to be a man. And Buffy made him feel close to someone in a way he never felt before. All good, little prizes for Spikey. Here's the bad. Buffy constantly makes Spike miserable. She always has right from the beginning. Spike angsts and suffers because he can never get a shot at her.

I donít understand this reasoning. If Buffy gave to Spike the means for changing, to become a better man etc. ..because simply he doesnít use them for move forward on with her life?
It's like wasting a gift and throw everything to the wind. It isn't Buffy that constantly makes Spike miserable, isnít the fault of Buffy if he cannot live alone. Because it must always be stuck to the skirt of a woman?


Gotta say, I agree with Janas.

It's hardly Buffy's fault that Spike fell in love with her and wanted more from her than she wanted from him. It's not her fault that he was in love and she wasn't. While I might understand you having sympathy for Spike for his unrequited love, I can't say that this is Buffy's fault or responsibility and thus, can't be something she's "responsible" for. Spike is responsible for his own happiness.

-Luc
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RomancexGirl
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janas wrote:

Talk about Connor in Chosen, it was really time less appropriate. Just a few hours before, Connor had disappeared into the oblivion of his new happy life, where no one remembered that he had never existed. Don't forget that both Willow and Faith knew about the Angel's son, and probably, Angel couldn't risk talking about him, because this would endanger his new life in the Reilly family. However, Scott Allie recently said that Buffy knows the existence of Connor, therefore at some point, Angel has certainly talked to Buffy about his son.


Just because everyone forgot Connor doesn't mean he didn't happen. Angel still had a son with Darla, one he loves very much. If Buffy was "just" an ex, I probably wouldn't make a big deal out of it. But she isn't, they still have stuff between them. So I find it very appropriate and very necessary for a talk like that in Chosen. It's not like Buffy would tell Willow or anyone else over it if Angel insisted she wouldn't. Still doubt Angel told Buffy about having a son on the TV series. It'd be a very long, complicated story and I don't think Angel would have the guts to tell her as soon as possible. Kinda think he would care too much about how she'd react.

I'm glad to see she knows. If Buffy still didn't, I would be seriously pissed at Angel. Four years is just too long.

janas wrote:
I donít understand this reasoning. If Buffy gave to Spike the means for changing, to become a better man etc. ..because simply he doesnít use them for move forward on with her life?

It's like wasting a gift and throw everything to the wind. It isn't Buffy that constantly makes Spike miserable, isnít the fault of Buffy if he cannot live alone. Because it must always be stuck to the skirt of a woman?


Who said I was blaming Buffy? She can't control how Spike thinks or feels for her, hell even Spike can't. You feel what you feel. The only thing you could blame him for is that he waited this long to move on with his life.

Does not change that everything I said before was true. His feelings make him miserable and angsty, eventually taking a toll on his confidence and self-esteem. Buffy is tied into this, so she does cause character damage for him. There's not just Spuffy postives for either side of the ship.
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:


Just because everyone forgot Connor doesn't mean he didn't happen. Angel still had a son with Darla, one he loves very much. If Buffy was "just" an ex, I probably wouldn't make a big deal out of it. But she isn't, they still have stuff between them. So I find it very appropriate and very necessary for a talk like that in Chosen. It's not like Buffy would tell Willow or anyone else over it if Angel insisted she wouldn't. Still doubt Angel told Buffy about having a son on the TV series. It'd be a very long, complicated story and I don't think Angel would have the guts to tell her as soon as possible. Kinda think he would care too much about how she'd react.

I'm glad to see she knows. If Buffy still didn't, I would be seriously pissed at Angel. Four years is just too long.


I agree that Buffy deserves to know and I wish we, as the audience and as B/A shippers could have seen it. However, I do think that the timing in EoD/Chosen was absolutely the WORST time for them to have had such a conversation. Not to mention, for all intents and purposes, I have no reason to suspect that Buffy didn't already know about it - Willow did and Faith did and I don't see Buffy NOT knowing.

However, you are right that we were robbed of seeing it and the drama and tension of it. That's one of many problems with the 2 shows on different networks.


RomancexGirl wrote:
Who said I was blaming Buffy? She can't control how Spike thinks or feels for her, hell even Spike can't. You feel what you feel. The only thing you could blame him for is that he waited this long to move on with his life.

Does not change that everything I said before was true. His feelings make him miserable and angsty, eventually taking a toll on his confidence and self-esteem. Buffy is tied into this, so she does cause character damage for him. There's not just Spuffy postives for either side of the ship.


Not to nitpick, but you did:

RomancexGirl wrote:
Buffy constantly makes Spike miserable. She always has right from the beginning.


However, I think I get what you meant - I *think* you meant that the situation made him miserable, that being in love with someone who is not in love back made him unhappy and in that regard, it wasn't a good relationship for him. And in that, I agree.

But it wasn't Buffy who made him miserable. It was his unrequited feelings.

-Luc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

I agree that Buffy deserves to know and I wish we, as the audience and as B/A shippers could have seen it. However, I do think that the timing in EoD/Chosen was absolutely the WORST time for them to have had such a conversation. Not to mention, for all intents and purposes, I have no reason to suspect that Buffy didn't already know about it - Willow did and Faith did and I don't see Buffy NOT knowing.


Well, Buffy's relationship with Spike was coming to light to Angel. Seems like a good time for him to fess up as well. I don't see how it was the worst possible time for them to share.

And would it be worse for Buffy to hear from Willow or Faith about Angel's son? Hearing it from them before the person she still loves? Buffy would be furious with Angel over this, and I think Willow has the tact to not mention it. Faith's more likely to tell her, but I'd hope she'd see it wasn't her place to.

See, I'm annoyed we even have to speculate over whether Angel told Buffy or not. We should just know if he did or didn't during the TV series, but we were robbed over that delightful piece of drama. My interpretation of Angel's character is reluctantly leaning towards a 'No' because I see him caring way too much about how Buffy would react towards the information. He'd tell her eventually, but not right away. While I'm happy to see she knows in the comics, I'm also disappointed over it. It irks me that the revelation was done off-panel/off-screen because something like that shouldn't be. If she ever met Connor at some point, it won't be dramatic because she already knows and adjusted to it. It just ... bothers me.

Imblack21 wrote:

However, I think I get what you meant - I *think* you meant that the situation made him miserable, that being in love with someone who is not in love back made him unhappy and in that regard, it wasn't a good relationship for him. And in that, I agree.

But it wasn't Buffy who made him miserable. It was his unrequited feelings.


Your thought is correct. That is exactly what I was trying to say, I wasn't blaming Buffy that way at all. If Spike didn't have such strong unrequited feelings for her, he wouldn't be constantly unhappy over it. And that level of unhappiness is not healthy for him either.
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