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As a Bangel fan, does Spuffy threaten you?
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Are you threatened by Spuffy?
Yes
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
No
76%
 76%  [ 35 ]
It's complicated
21%
 21%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 46

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CrystalSC
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Joined: 20 Apr 2010
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Location: Greenville, SC, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I f-lock all my posts except for graphics. And I too am choosy about how I friend. The only time that's an issue is if someone comments on my journal with an icon I find disturbing (such as wincest.) Then I delete their comment regardless of how nice it may be.
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Leni
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrystalSC wrote:
if someone comments on my journal with an icon I find disturbing (such as wincest.) Then I delete their comment regardless of how nice it may be.


Yeah, happened to me once. Had to remind my friend to kindly not use that icon on my LJ - she was a total sweetheart about it, thank goodness.



I lock everything fandom-related that's not fanfic. Not because I don't trust my Flist (heck, a good fourth of my Flist doesn't care about the Jossverse), but because on the off chance that someone may find my occasional rants offensive, I won't find myself being swamped by strangers.

Once bitten, twice shy, I guess. lol.
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Kean
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only really started using my LJ last summer and then it was mostly as a place to vent about the shit show that was going on at the board I modded. I soon realised that members of that board were on reading my journal so I flocked it and pretty much have kept it that way ever since.

I mean my flist is pretty tiny and I don't think I say anything particularly interesting but I don't want to have to deal with people invading my space demanding answers for my opinion. I'm very wary of the su_herald thing, I've seen a few people have posts linked that caused trouble . And I have to say I am wary of that small group who like to make examples of people and hold them up as evil fans for all the fandom to see. They are a small group but their influence is quite large.
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ashleyt
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I have to say I am wary of that small group who like to make examples of people and hold them up as evil fans for all the fandom to see. They are a small group but their influence is quite large.


I agree Shocked
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genesis
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of really thoughtful replies and discussion. I have to admit I have only dipped my toes in here and there to a few Buffy communities. I posted quite a bit at the old Buffy Cross & Stake, and the Bronze, but back then season 6 wasn't even a glimmer in most people's eyes and Buffy and Angel were still the only canon Buffy relationship. So it was a lot more about "what is going to happen next!?" and a lot less rehashing of old plots and now, it seems, wounds.

I can't imagine someone cursing me out because I like Buffy and Angel together. I'm sure whatever response was given, it was restrained! Really, how uncalled for. I can imagine those of you who "bear the wounds" so to speak of this fandom war might find the mere mention of the term "Spuffy" wearying.

I certainly would like to see everyone put down their weapons and their guards if possible. It's true that the Spike/Buffy faction is much more visible and vocal in the fandom these days, and are prolific writers as well, but I'm of the opinion that it takes two to tango and we don't have to escalate the problem if we don't want to. I often like to hear the opinions of people who view the show differently than I do. However if anyone was ever so abrasive to me personally, I don't know how I could possibly react to that.

I even would like to hear the opinions of someone who likes Buffy with Riley. However I've never met such a person! Razz The poor Buffy/Riley shippers are the real losers in all of this I guess.
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Cryngle
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashleyt wrote:
Well Spike's eye colour was just not acceptable![/i]


I never even noticed the error. Jo Chen is an amazing artist. She just grasps the likeness of each actor so well... I love that cover she did for B/A.

ashleyt wrote:
Quote:
And I have to say I am wary of that small group who like to make examples of people and hold them up as evil fans for all the fandom to see. They are a small group but their influence is quite large.


I agree Shocked


Thats very wrong, ridiculing someone for their opinion by broadcasting it across a network? shameful..

ashleyt wrote:
I'm not as selective but I don't have people on my flist that I worry about tbh. If I ever come to a point where I do, then I'll defriend them.


I usually only stick to friending people with the same b/a filled passion as I and am quite picky in said regard.

genesis wrote:
A lot of really thoughtful replies and discussion. I have to admit I have only dipped my toes in here and there to a few Buffy communities. I posted quite a bit at the old Buffy Cross & Stake, and the Bronze, but back then season 6 wasn't even a glimmer in most people's eyes and Buffy and Angel were still the only canon Buffy relationship. So it was a lot more about "what is going to happen next!?" and a lot less rehashing of old plots and now, it seems, wounds.

I can't imagine someone cursing me out because I like Buffy and Angel together. I'm sure whatever response was given, it was restrained! Really, how uncalled for. I can imagine those of you who "bear the wounds" so to speak of this fandom war might find the mere mention of the term "Spuffy" wearying.

I certainly would like to see everyone put down their weapons and their guards if possible. It's true that the Spike/Buffy faction is much more visible and vocal in the fandom these days, and are prolific writers as well, but I'm of the opinion that it takes two to tango and we don't have to escalate the problem if we don't want to. I often like to hear the opinions of people who view the show differently than I do. However if anyone was ever so abrasive to me personally, I don't know how I could possibly react to that.

I even would like to hear the opinions of someone who likes Buffy with Riley. However I've never met such a person! Razz The poor Buffy/Riley shippers are the real losers in all of this I guess.


Sounds like that happened such a long time ago and wish I'd been around for that period. Heart Wink
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Leni
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genesis wrote:
I even would like to hear the opinions of someone who likes Buffy with Riley. However I've never met such a person! The poor Buffy/Riley shippers are the real losers in all of this I guess.


There was a Buffy/Riley 'shipper hanging out at open_on_sunday a year or so ago. And I'm sure I've heard one or two people in my Flist say they prefer Riley to Spike if Angel wasn't in the map.

Never really paid attention, though. Buffy/Riley is the one canon couple that can actually make me cranky and come up with creative ways to dispose of him. Productive? Hardly. Mature? Not one bit.

Hence the ignoring the whole B/R thing as much as I can.
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CrystalSC
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? Riley never bothered me. I guess I just never really saw it going anywhere. And he was such a nice guy for the most part; it was hard to hate him. Their relationship felt a little forced but that was all.
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Leni
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I don't hate *Riley*. In post-S5 fics, I'm happy to acknowledge him as a good ex-boyfriend.

Thing is, imo he shouldn't have been a boyfriend at all. He would have made a perfect ally.

Quote:
I guess I just never really saw it going anywhere.


That's exactly what bothers me. Every single fan in the planet knew that Riley wasn't Buffy's happily-ever-after. Heck, we all knew he wasn't even her angstily-ever-after. So, what was the POINT? Just so that Buffy could claim that she was trying out the normal human relationship experience? That she was moving on? Boy, do I feel sorry for Riley in that case. If so, she should have stuck with one-night-stands. Relationships can't be about proving a point; they are about caring about the other person.

I never felt that Riley was a priority for Buffy, I guess.



Why do I want to violently dispose of Riley if I feel sorry for him? I DID say I was being completely immature about it.

Very Happy
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Helmi
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrystalSC wrote:
Really? Riley never bothered me. I guess I just never really saw it going anywhere. And he was such a nice guy for the most part; it was hard to hate him. Their relationship felt a little forced but that was all.


Glad to see I'm not the only one who wasn't bothered by him. But I think a big reason to that is because the first episode I saw Riley in was As you were and only later I saw season 4 and 5 so for me the relationship had already ended before it really began. And like you said, Riley was a nice guy, if a little boring. But what bothered me was that the relationship moved too quickly, they had their first date in Something blue (ep9) or was it just hanging around cause it was just a picnic and first kiss was an episode later, in Doomed (ep11) they were having a break and just two episode later they jumped into bed together. I really don't think that Buffy would be ready to jump into bed with someone so quickly after so short period of dating because of what happened with Angelus and Parker. And another thing that bothered me about the B/R relationship was that the writers kept trying to prove that Riley was better than Angel (like Dawn saying so because he doesn't make Buffy cry as much as Angel did), but even that didn't make me dislike him, it didn't prove Riley better it just made it feel forced.



Leni wrote:


Quote:
I guess I just never really saw it going anywhere.

That's exactly what bothers me. Every single fan in the planet knew that Riley wasn't Buffy's happily-ever-after. Heck, we all knew he wasn't even her angstily-ever-after. So, what was the POINT? Just so that Buffy could claim that she was trying out the normal human relationship experience? That she was moving on? Boy, do I feel sorry for Riley in that case. If so, she should have stuck with one-night-stands. Relationships can't be about proving a point; they are about caring about the other person.

I never felt that Riley was a priority for Buffy, I guess.



Yet another reason why Angel was perfect for Buffy and she couldn't have a relationship with a normal human. Riley was probably closest to Buffy's lifestyle of all her boyfriends or potential ones like Owen (if we're not counting Angel who also understood the slayer aspect of her unlike Riley did), but still he didn't last. We have been shown time and again that Buffy and normal boyfriends don't mix. Owen almost got killed on the first date and like she said one day she would get him killed especially with his new thrill seeking attitude, Scott didn't last because he didn't know about her secret life and couldn't take the psychological strain that her duty had on her. And then there's Riley who knew she was a slayer and even fought beside her, but despite knowing all about her he couldn't handle her being stronger than him or living in Angel's shadow. Not to mention there were other strains on the relationship like the fact that Riley couldn't tell the difference between Buffy and Faith and slept with Faith (I am certain Angel would have known!) and that he didn't trust Buffy enough why else would he have suspected that she had slept with Angel causing him to turn into Angelus.
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CrystalSC
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helmi wrote:
But what bothered me was that the relationship moved too quickly, they had their first date in Something blue (ep9) or was it just hanging around cause it was just a picnic and first kiss was an episode later, in Doomed (ep11) they were having a break and just two episode later they jumped into bed together.


I thought this too. That was my one complaint about B/R and one of the reasons I felt it was forced. I watched the show on dvd (not real time) so I thought perhaps that lent to my feelings but when I mentioned it was too soon for Buffy my friend asked me, "You don't think 3 months was long enough?" And I replied, "After the love of your life? No way."
When my first serious relationship ended at 18, it took me a solid year to get over him.
That said, I don't have a problem with Buffy trying to date other people, it was just the pacing/forced nature of it. She didn't HAVE to have a love interest right away. But it seems that lots of shows do that.

Leni wrote:
That's exactly what bothers me. Every single fan in the planet knew that Riley wasn't Buffy's happily-ever-after. Heck, we all knew he wasn't even her angstily-ever-after. So, what was the POINT?


So Buffy shouldn't have ever dated anyone she didn't think could be a potentially happily ever after?

Leni wrote:
Just so that Buffy could claim that she was trying out the normal human relationship experience? That she was moving on? Boy, do I feel sorry for Riley in that case. If so, she should have stuck with one-night-stands. Relationships can't be about proving a point; they are about caring about the other person.


But Buffy didn't know why she was doing it. People rarely stop to fully analyze their actions when it comes to dating/love. I don't think Buffy set out to prove a point by dating Riley. I think the liked the idea of something and she liked Riley and thought maybe the two could go hand-in-hand.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just stating my take on B/R.

I also saw a lot of politics behind B/R. The studio wanted Buffy to have a love interest. The fan reaction was against B/R, he got written out. I thought it was big of them to bring him back in season 6 given how vile the fan reaction had been to him.
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Helmi
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrystalSC wrote:
Helmi wrote:
But what bothered me was that the relationship moved too quickly, they had their first date in Something blue (ep9) or was it just hanging around cause it was just a picnic and first kiss was an episode later, in Doomed (ep11) they were having a break and just two episode later they jumped into bed together.


I thought this too. That was my one complaint about B/R and one of the reasons I felt it was forced. I watched the show on dvd (not real time) so I thought perhaps that lent to my feelings but when I mentioned it was too soon for Buffy my friend asked me, "You don't think 3 months was long enough?" And I replied, "After the love of your life? No way."
When my first serious relationship ended at 18, it took me a solid year to get over him.
That said, I don't have a problem with Buffy trying to date other people, it was just the pacing/forced nature of it. She didn't HAVE to have a love interest right away. But it seems that lots of shows do that.



I too first saw season 4 and 5 on DVD so maybe that does contribute to the quickness of it, a little... But Btvs (especially) and Ats seem to have a bad habbit of making their characters move on too quickly. Buffy dated Scott couple of episodes after she came back from LA where she had been so heartbroken that she could barely function when she was alone, but she did think Angel was gone and wasn't coming back, Willow was encouraging her to go to a new relationship and it seemed to be moving very slowly, did they even kiss at any point? Then there was Parker who with she slept on the first date (something even SMG said to Joss Buffy wouldn't do) and I'm a little pissed that Buffy's line about Parker being rebound and just a way to convince everyone and herself that she could get over Angel was cut from the episode, if it had stayed on we would have had a more believable reason for the Parker-thing and she wouldn't have had to mope after him for several episodes. Some time later we have Riley, but since I already ranted on it I'll move on to Willow.

Willow was in love with Oz and it wasn't some high school experiment thing, it was love. When Oz left, she was heartbroken for several episodes but it didn't take long for her to find Tara. The relationship was done slowly so I don't have a problem with that and Tara is a sweetheart, good for Willow. Oz left in ep6 and came back in 19 and at that time Willow was already in love with Tara and chose her over him, not sure about the months in between those episodes. Tara is murdered and Willow goes on a murdering binge of her own and tries to end the world because she's in so much pain, but only seven months (I actually counted) after Tara's death she meets Kennedy who starts going after her like she's the only female on the planet and she gives in, Tara is forgotten.

Then we have the AI team who likes to date in the family, there are no people outside the Hyperion, during season 3 it became a soap opera all about the relationships. I'm trying to repress the horror of C/A and bad writing that was at large from Disharmony to the beginning of season 4 so I'm just gonna say what I remember. In Earshot Angel says :"In 243 years, I've loved exactly one person" then two years later he's "in lurve" with Cordelia. He meets the love of his life that has been just brought back to life and only few episodes later he starts to listen to the ox dung that Fred and Lorne spout and starts to give Cordelia looks like he's constipated. Then there's Fred and Gunn, Fred is having fuzzy feelings towards Wesley and Gunn sleeps with Gwen while they're still dating, Gunn's infidelity was never addressed which is disappointing.

In the golden years (1-3 of Btvs) relationships developed slowly and believably, it took seven episodes for Buffy and Angel kiss for the first time, it wasn't until on the second season that they started to date and they had already been in love with each other before that happened (Angel pretty much confirmed his feelings in 'Prophecy Girl' and Buffy even before him in 'Angel' and said the words aloud to him in 'Lie to me'). Well, I doubt I need to say more about that couple in this company, so next we have Xander and Cordelia. They constantly bickered and in a stressful life and death situation they had their first kiss, their "hate" for each other turned into passion and for a long while they just kept making out in closets and it wasn't until later that they actually started to date but even then their relationship kept evolving. With Willow and Oz we got two "Who's that girl"-moments before they got to speak to each other face-to-face (if we don't count face to sheet), they knew each other for a while before their first date in Surprise and we got that great speech from Oz in Innocence which seemed to make the deal for Willow. And Giles and Jenny actually had several dates. For some reason the writers started to hurry things and didn't let them move on their own pace, giving the viewers time to develop connection to the new love interest. Buffy barely spoke to Riley during the six first episodes and then suddenly Riley notices that he likes Buffy and they are dating. And for two seasons Angel and Cordelia hadn't shown nothing but family feelings towards each other and suddenly they are moira and ox dung, Lorne had known them both since the beginning of season 2 and suddenly he sees them as destiny and all that other crap that he and Fred spouted during season 3.

Wow, that was a long-winded rant...
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LoveKatieholmes90
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljgould wrote:
I've never been threatened by any 'ship, although there are some that I find more distasteful than others (C/A and B/G, for example).

My problem with Spuffy from the beginning was that it was so abusive -- on both sides, not just one. If the writers were attempting to show how completely lost Buffy was after heaven, it was a valid ploy. Unfortunately, the writers didn't play it right, and too many little fangirls (of all ages -- go figure that one out) decided that it was "romantic" with the whole bad boy and "let's make Spike a good guy" thing. Then came the attempted rape, and once again the fangirls made excuses and said it wasn't really rape. And I saw red.

The "let's make Spike a champion" was just silly and foolish. I've heard that the whole soul-getting thing was planned, but it makes more sense to think it wasn't what he was after -- he wanted the chip out.

Was he a good guy at the end? Yes, he was because he chose to do what was right even though it was hard and he'd likely die. Was he a champion? No, but he was getting there. Unfortunately, on Angel he mostly reverted to type -- annoying, selfish, and out to bug the real Champion.

I have to agree with someone else who said that they had more trouble with the Spufffy fans than with Spuffy itself. I've found the hardcore Spuffies to be rude, offensive and intolerant. I'm not sure why -- maybe they know that their 'ship is doomed.


I completely agree with everything you said. Spuffy was never a threat to me. I really didn't like how their "relationship" (even though it isn't so) started. Buffy was completely lost and of course she gave in to the bad boy BUT..seriously ..even if he kinda loved her and she said it when he was about to die..how can someone even think that these two could really love each other, could really be a true love? What Angel and Buffy had, have and always will have is above Spuffy...the writers showed us and in Chosen I felt safe cause from the conversation I knew Buffy will choose Angel when it's gonna be the time.
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bangellove
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoveKatieholmes90 wrote:
ljgould wrote:
I've never been threatened by any 'ship, although there are some that I find more distasteful than others (C/A and B/G, for example).

My problem with Spuffy from the beginning was that it was so abusive -- on both sides, not just one. If the writers were attempting to show how completely lost Buffy was after heaven, it was a valid ploy. Unfortunately, the writers didn't play it right, and too many little fangirls (of all ages -- go figure that one out) decided that it was "romantic" with the whole bad boy and "let's make Spike a good guy" thing. Then came the attempted rape, and once again the fangirls made excuses and said it wasn't really rape. And I saw red.

The "let's make Spike a champion" was just silly and foolish. I've heard that the whole soul-getting thing was planned, but it makes more sense to think it wasn't what he was after -- he wanted the chip out.

Was he a good guy at the end? Yes, he was because he chose to do what was right even though it was hard and he'd likely die. Was he a champion? No, but he was getting there. Unfortunately, on Angel he mostly reverted to type -- annoying, selfish, and out to bug the real Champion.

I have to agree with someone else who said that they had more trouble with the Spufffy fans than with Spuffy itself. I've found the hardcore Spuffies to be rude, offensive and intolerant. I'm not sure why -- maybe they know that their 'ship is doomed.


I completely agree with everything you said. Spuffy was never a threat to me. I really didn't like how their "relationship" (even though it isn't so) started. Buffy was completely lost and of course she gave in to the bad boy BUT..seriously ..even if he kinda loved her and she said it when he was about to die..how can someone even think that these two could really love each other, could really be a true love? What Angel and Buffy had, have and always will have is above Spuffy...the writers showed us and in Chosen I felt safe cause from the conversation I knew Buffy will choose Angel when it's gonna be the time.


Well Spuke friends feel so sorry Crying or Very sad for him that they have decided that Buffy loved him above all people in her life Rolling Eyes
All they can say about B/A relationship is "how Angel is sooo boring" but they never mention anything about the relationship they both had/have, now THAT is sad, they keep fooling themselves into thinking that Spike is a better man for Buffy and that "he died for her in Chosen", well most of time he spent trying to kill her, shag her or disrespect her every way possible because she's a slayer, obviously he had to do something for her * to die*, when Angel had to give up almost everything or everyone so that their Spike*sparkles* Rolling Eyes could see another night obssessing about Buffy, whining how his life was miserable, acting like a cool guy, probably thinking how to separate Buffy from her supposed friends, how to rape her, or how to get a chip out of his head and instead getting a soul as a reward because he made a few trials and wasn't cursed nor he suffered with guilt for 100 years, because to Spike*sparkles* fans, being cursed Is a gift Rolling Eyes
(I'm sorry for this comment to whom I might offend)
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon my rambles here, I'm trying to catch up with a lot of posts at once. I've been reading but not posting (no particular reason, I just get that way sometimes), and it looks like I missed some good stuff. Smile

I didn't mind Riley. Well, I did at the time, and I still don't enjoy watching Buffy get lovey with anyone but Angel, but after putting some thought into Buffy/Riley, it did make sense. I imagine that by the end of the summer after Angel left, she had full intentions of living the life that he wanted her to, which included finding a "normal guy" who could make her happy in all the ways that Angel couldn't. She knew that nobody could replace Angel in her heart, but she also knew that she could love someone else in a different way, and she probably thought that was all she needed.

For a long time, she got exactly what she wanted from Riley. He was a perfect boyfriend, he had real potential as a foundation for the family which I still believe she wants someday, and he wasn't a threat to her connection with Angel because they were such different men and relationships. She was aware that he was second place as the love of her life, but she put him first place in her conscious focus. What she didn't understand was that Riley was never going to be okay with being second place, since she was first place for him.

It does seem like it took an awfully long time for her to figure all this out, but after all, we're viewing it from a privileged perspective. Buffy couldn't have Angel; the only choices she saw were dating or solitude. She never did give up on dating, either-- after Riley was gone, she allowed herself time for self-reflection, but she never got to the point where she could reconcile her need for a partner with her situation of already having a soulmate.

CrystalSC wrote:
That said, I don't have a problem with Buffy trying to date other people, it was just the pacing/forced nature of it. She didn't HAVE to have a love interest right away. But it seems that lots of shows do that.


Yes. I share that exact problem with you. One thing it made me think about, though, is the way Buffy's character was shaped by her sexual experiences in S4. While Angel was still in the picture, all we knew was that she wanted to sleep with him and couldn't, but after she hopped into bed with Parker and then Riley (a LOT), it seemed to say that Buffy is just a girl who happens to really like sex. I'm not following that with any moral judgments on her or criticism of the show for taking her that way, but I think it's held true to the present-- she wants to get physical, and when she doesn't have a partner for it, she's frustrated and has dreams about threesomes.

Helmi wrote:
But Btvs (especially) and Ats seem to have a bad habbit of making their characters move on too quickly.


Very true. I agree with everything you said about the development of the relationships in both shows. In the case of BtVS I kind of wonder if that was meant to reflect the difference between high school and college relationships, but that still doesn't really do it for me. Watching pairings change so quickly made my head spin-- if I wanted that, I'd watch soap operas. Also, I think some long stretches of single life would have been really valuable to some characters. (Especially the one who was cursed with enforced celibacy, cough.)

bangellove wrote:
(I'm sorry for this comment to whom I might offend)


Well, you know none of us are Spuffy-shippers, but if you're not sure if your post is offensive you might try rewording it just on principle. As genesis said, it would be cool if we could all put down our weapons and our guards. Smile

And thanks for the post, genesis. Looks like the discussion on it has branched off in multiple directions, but it's all been good![/quote]
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