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Buffy and Angel in Consequences

 
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Buffy and Angel in Consequences Reply with quote

Since people have been too busy for the rewatch thread, I thought I'd make this a separate topic in case anyone wants to weigh in.

What is your impression of what is happening between Buffy and Angel in Consequences? I got the sense that Angel was putting the pieces together of what happened with Faith and the deputy mayor on his own (using his enhanced powers of smell and lurking), then captured Faith and called Buffy.

Do you think he and Buffy were actually communicating behind the scenes?

If you don't think Buffy told Angel what happened before Angel captured Faith, why do you think she made that choice? It doesn't seem like Angel would fall into the realm of "mandated reporter" authority figure, like Giles might (in terms of involving the Watchers Council or even the police), and he is actually in a position to help.

Curious for your thoughts!
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dcai0830
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Joined: 20 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry I just saw this - and because I've fallen behind on s3 rewatch I didn't watch your question there either.

I always assumed that Angel and Buffy communicated about what happened. Actually, I was thinking that this is a one of those scenes I would really like to see. Because I know that Buffy would have come to Angel to talk to him about her predicament pretty early on. She has always confided in Angel about things and this is one of the most difficult situation she has found himself in so it almost doesn't make sense that she wouldn't go to him to talk about this.

I do think that Angel pieced some of these things together but by the time that Angel shows up to Faith's motel I think he already got the full scoop from Buffy.

After Buffy has the talk with the scoobies about "who can help get through to Faith" I head canon that Buffy realized that Angel would perfect to help and reached out to him to ask him to go to Faith and try and see if he could talk her into doing the right thing.
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, when she says, “Maybe one of the guys could” to Giles, it seems like she has to mean Angel, because she clearly doesn’t mean Xander (as we see in the cafeteria scene). And even if she means “guys” generally, it’s not like Willow and Faith have a bond, so there’s really no one else she could be talking about, right? Definitely not Wesley, either.

But it’s confusing. I think this episode is a bit like Enemies in the sense that the parts that we don’t see don’t quite match up with what we do see.

So do you think she told Willow, then Giles, then Angel? It seems like if she told Angel first, he would have convinced her to talk to Giles the way Willow did...
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
So do you think she told Willow, then Giles, then Angel? It seems like if she told Angel first, he would have convinced her to talk to Giles the way Willow did...


Yes, I think given the writing and sequence of events I think she told Willow,, then Giles then Angel.

I don't think that makes a ton of sense to me personally. I feel like this is exactly the thing that is right up Angel's alley (moral dilemmas) and I think that Buffy would certainly confide in him because she knows the extent of his loyalty to her. She struggles with some insecurities with him but at the end of the day she knows that he has her back.

But I think this is another example of how the show, rightfully so, needs to show the many dynamics of Buffy's relationship and in order to resolve the tension between Willow and Buffy re Faith it was important that she be the person that Buffy confided in. And of course she would advise her to tell Giles (which is the right thing to do).

I also think that it would be difficult to write the scene with Angel. Because it puts Angel, the character, in a difficult predicament. Does he tell her to confess to the police and potentially expose herself to scrutiny (which some would argue is the morally right thing to do) or does he tell her that this is a casualty of war and they need to find a way to help Faith without getting the police involved (which is a morally questionable decision). So it could potentially put Angel in a bad light.

Contrast this with Spike's attempt in s6 to cover up the murder of Katrina. He does the morally wrong thing because his priority is protecting Buffy. But Angel has to be our righteous hero and therefore he can't fulfill that role.

Hmm I feel like I'm not making much sense, but the two situations do beg comparison I feel. And I would like to see the behind the scenes of Consequences - maybe by you or Taaroko - since ya'll are so good at wedging in these types of behind the scenes while maintaining canon compliance.
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I see what you mean about it potentially putting Angel in a tough spot. But at the same time, if he recommended going to Giles, like Willow did, and like I think he would, then that seems to be a solid way to go.

I guess maybe what we're supposed to assume is that Buffy didn't tell Angel because she was ashamed of her behavior on Bad Girls night after Angel warned her to be careful, and she didn't want to admit to him how out of hand it had gotten. She had the opportunity to tell him right away when he noticed the blood on her hand, and she didn't, so maybe it was just an extension of that?

It's also possible Buffy didn't want to tell Angel, even after she thought about it for a while, because she worried if he knew, Faith might target him. Faith could get away with killing him in a way that she couldn't with another human.

Maybe I'll write something someday but for now I have my own plot holes to fill! Razz
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sybil
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the idea of "consequences" one also has regard "premises" and that being ignored means they never finished the story.

It is no secret that “disappointment” and “nostalgia” are rather common outlooks for the entirety of the BTVS/ATS franchise, not to mention, most of the older/original viewers are no longer invested in BTVS, for many reasons, including the disappointment on some ‘outcome’ for a favorite character or ship or the nostalgia for the “times of your life” that made Buffy or other characters so “relatable” within a humorous and yet serious struggle with even life itself.

Some refuse to entertain anything that hasn’t Joss’s name on the “cover,” in, minimally, producing it. Joss is also surprised that the request to have a decent production value is just "asking too much." That suggests he still loves Buffy, too.

It is no secret that I am disappointed in the failure of completing the "book/story in whole" and in Joss Whedon as a person. I should have realized that his worship of the cynical is the only reality he will entertain, and the younger the protagonist of his works accepts this view, the more comfortable he is. Never mind that outlook leaves “no place to go” as a “journey” story, but down into insignificance or up into Pollyanna, regressive drooling of the brain dead.

The unrealistic realities of " blah, blah boring of power dynamics " in some “world domination” scheme—jeez every single tv show running; all action, no character--ever bigger villains that are "external" to the protagonists. This does the reverse on “POV” or "all about Buffy" or Angel—which, to me had a much greater intensity and reality in the nature of real struggle: that of the self. This is shown between Buffy and her beloved/nemesis Angel/Angelus. No one was unclear about the great paradoxical and ironic struggle between these characters nor did anyone not understand “what the heck is going on.” Change was all too real.

The writers tried to re-create such categorically intense and riveting narrative, but it mostly was a prurient indulgence on sexual exploration and self annihilation in order for the protagonist to be "schooled straight” and the villain to become a hero. Nowadays it isn’t even a good idea to know your partner’s name in hooking up. “NO ONE” is actually doing that hooking up.


Glad to know that Buffy got raped straight, versus season two “the wisdom of the innocent” is most definitely not naïve. Until Joss changed his mind about the whole epic reality in favor of Dawn as the ultimate protagonist and “solution” —just as Connor is on ATS. Didn’t know that in season one or two or even three of both shows!

Further, the solutions of ATS has nothing to do with “story.’ It is a piece of propaganda. There was a strange, near unintelligible morass of power players mostly promoting overall : “kill your gods,” to “create your own gods” is how one provides personal meaning. Yeah. It is a mixed idea regarding both the nature of POV and the idea of (atheistic) existentialism.

Hey, I didn’t say it made logical sense: an immortal (!)”Destroyer of worlds” delivering that message is not only clueless, but reveals how far the narrative had lost its own thematic character promise(s) Humans actually die, all of them--AND YET!). You do remember there is the protagonist Angel, not a piece of ‘propaganda”? You do remember Angel had a cursed soul and “immortality” was a thing he was dying to lose, including the greatest sacrifice he made which was giving up his mortality to save the very beloved (who couldn’t be named by producer caveat but we know actually “saves the world a lot?”)

Any news on these basic stories?

Some of the fans of BTVS had had enough and made no effort to pursue characters they cared about become simply unfathomable, in a canon that inserted more and more deux ex machinas and “strange mythologies” to explain things no western mythology entertains, and to create a schism even more devisive than between BTVS and ATS, but told in the reality of shipper wars and meant to include an audience who had to do the actual growing up that eluded these characters.

The sharp antagonisms and soft nostalgic moments and wishes are what is left is not merely “bittersweet” but why so many of us fans cared so very deeply, feel “unfilled,’ if not utterly bitter or just remain a little haunted.

It is nearly impossible to separate SMG from Buffy—even if there actually had been a Buffy movie once before. The cartoon show that died, the book covers, the posters, the years and years of comics and even the new Boom comics still show SMG. If you can segregate SMG from Buffy you might be able to follow and enjoy any new representation within your own tastes of enjoyment.

As much as Joss the man utterly disappoints me for his ADMIRATION for the cynical as answer to the world and the nature of character, I cling to SMG’s actual “loyalty’ to a character she had to create from great words, but deep and complex feeling for the story she believed she was actually telling.

Her complaints were just another “show” she ALSO didn’t understand: THIS is the story now.” Which she really hadn’t agreed to play. So she quit and good on her.

I guess, that is the part I have to “blow past” is the use of these faces doing weird things in favor of a completely different “adventure”; and it is the adventure the writers choose you have to enjoy- not the people shown actually enduring it. They simply haven’t dared to show Buffy with anyone else’s face. Now that is an amazing idea: myths having no particular face to an iconic face as the myth itself. Go figure!!!!!

I guess “another slayer” is another world that might develop followers, but I gotta admit a different “Buffy” will not just be a different take, but a different Buffy I really can’t trust (Joss) to carry me home: she can’t be Buffy at all. Because I am not invested in such a Buffy. Or Angel, for that matter. I guess fanon is all I got there, despite small efforts to show both the B/A romance, but to me, the all important “telling of the tale” why myths continue to hold something “true” and remain recognizable in whatever dress through * millenniums * of retelling

I think that SMG changed Buffy into a human being Joss doesn't imagine. He prefers Laura Mars--someone who is actually "done" and has bad stuff happen to her.

To the point of all this: The new comics (to me) offer a completely different Buffy world, despite the shocking use of the same faces you once knew as Buffy, as Angel, as the Scoobies, and the attending villains, and I have no idea about the tv show, as I haven’t heard if it will ‘move forward’ considering over all interest in vampires seems to be favoring zombies and super heroes (that aren’t much different).

So! The Buffyworld can live on, I think, but I also think for old fans there will be too much to let go of and to accept without FIRST letting NEW STORIES IN OLD MASKS OR SIMPLY COMPLETELY NEW PEOPLE IN NEW STORIES become the passing parade of whatever moves quickly, is very shiny, and has a very explicit rating: shallow.

I am not giving you the armor of cynicism, but of sustainable acceptance in measure with your own investment.

Enjoy!
HUGS!
sybil
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Janas2
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Joined: 06 Oct 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this post is extraordinary and as always happens with the posts of Sybil, rationally I think I have not understood anything but in the deep unconscious everything is clear and I perceive an inner YES ❤️👍
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