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Twenty years

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Dark Star
The Powers That Be

Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 1707
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Twenty years Reply with quote

Probably not going to be a surprise to any of you, but the BBC are running this:

20 years already?
~Dark Star

"Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."
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Grace Newman
Chosen One

Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 511
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a fun read.

I read a lot of 20th anniversary coverage, and one fun piece that stands out was a Billboard story with memories from Cibo Matto, Nerf Herder, Bif Naked, Michelle Branch and Ashanti about appearing on the show.

Bif Naked's section included this:
For us, Angel [Buffy's vampire love interest, played by David Boreanaz] was a big deal. Not only was he super hot, but he was quiet and mysterious, all of the things.

Also, the Nerf Herder drummer talks about how they wandered around and played with prop stakes and crossbows and things. Pretty funny.

And, on the more serious side, journalist Jamie Tarabay tweeted a link to a piece she did back in 2008 in which she talked about how Buffy got her through her two years covering the Iraq war.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question: The problem defined by B/A was the reality of vampire-human relationships, which B/A understood in the “WHY “ from the very beginning: TIME. (The normal, human life of CHANGE —as the “good”—( in pain, Joss always asserts) is “transformation”: “fertility,” “relationship” and “other” in light; and the demonic life of FROZEN “death,” “destruction,” “ ignorance,” and “ evil” is the immutable darkness itself). Why is this not a problem with Spuffy? Is he not a vampire? Is she not a mortal?

The NARRATIVE changed from “time” to become a question of “being a good guy.” It never was a question of “black and white”—asserted against B/A—and the “complicated” role of sex and forgiveness within time, as “more mature” claimed as “Spuffy” world.

The question of mortal time (inside space-time) and eternal or immortal vampire time (Outside of time) is simply IGNORED for a different story altogether, a story having zero future, for it is NO DIFFERENT than B/A’s “problem” determined, as was STATED in “Angel” and within the very first season.

No Spuffy person can state that “vampire-human” unions themselves are “the problem” as Buffy and Angel recognized IS the problem and all the struggles (of NOT dealing with the “curse is the key” are why the “journey” of B/A is incomplete ; and “makes no sense.” For the fact remains that the “soul” is considered “immortal” and also shown as “the light.” THAT means the soul is NOT immaterial, for light is this universe’s “constant” (LOVE) and yet is also material and changes/transforms from matter to energy).

The story simply changed the “problem” of Time, (inside it: life and death are inseparable, but transform, one within the other, as does matter-energy. They have only shown that B/A is “outside of time” or the “eternal now,” which means one IS the light and YET is DENIED the reality of “the light” illuminating the darkness: the ability to learn/to change, to “grow” to ‘BECOME’ THE CONSTANT CHANGE that is love and therefore life itself.

Spuffy became the story of “becoming” A GOOD GUY. Buffy had to become the “vampire” to make the story of a soulless demon and a nihilistic entity struggle with the reality of NO LIGHT: The problem of the redemption of Spike is that Buffy herself remains frozen, clueless to her own experience with Angel, except “sex” is the conversation and making that “maturity” we have two beings who are pretty much gossip and narrative death.

Buffy REMAINS in the frozen state of “avatar” —the landscape of “all about Buffy” as a tarot card amongst others—the landscape of the id—from which “rebellion” is treated as the “lance of light” within darkness to contrive some means for plot through staggering ignorance of its own narrative problems.

This means that Buffy is NOT a “good guy”—she didn’t “become” either an adult or “normal,” did she? She is caught and fraught in the state of “forever,” as if the question is Angel or Spike, when the correct answer, Mr. Trebek, “what is NEITHER,” as both “protagonists” within whatever triangle, are all “stuck” in eternity, the “forever now,” which is why THE SOUL is used as “the catylyst” of both “good” and “eternity” to “make change” was even “dreamed up” to even make that change possible.

Yet, BOTH Angel and Spike remain vampires, DESPITE the soul, while Buffy becomes “eternal” in frozen state of ‘avatar’ ceding her humanity to Dawn, who is the real sign of “change of narrative” in her “sudden appearance” is the “herald” for schism in childhood and adulthood for DAWN and NOT Buffy. She died.

And why is this not sufficient? Because “everyone” knows the “rule of three” and Buffy, Spike and Angel all have not had their third death, as ‘death’ is the measure of “change” in “transformation/transfiguration” aka “Becoming.”

So it is indeed Dawn who is now doing “the becoming”—even as she fades from the world of childhood , goes to college, and finds something different with a human Xander. So, the X/Bers “win” in awful terms of the good guy getting the girl, as they actually SOLVE THE PROBLEM, logically and in even in “reward for their actual “becoming” in the maturity of adulthood and in Xander’s proven loyalty, now in purest selfless love, that changed/adapted/ grew and yet was “always constant” and “always true” “all along.” After all, Xander was first to pick up the LITERAL stakes, while Angel or Spike only staked his own life.

When it comes to spiritual maturity, Buffy and Angel were fully actualized in the reality of love whose form answers only WITH love, and thus, simply put, can never be “black and white,” just as life cannot be separated from death in this universe’s “laws of light” (energy-matter) or in the paradox of “always change” or “ever becoming.”

Bottom line, vampire or human, there is material reality: existence; and THAT defines “relationship” NOT sex alone or being a “good guy” answers all problems.

The notion that fulfilling the “ridigity of roles” in who take out the trash or does the dishes, as “material reality,” to form “relationship” proves that neither Buffy nor Spike ever confronted what Buffy and Angel confronted FROM THE START, while in perfect union of one mind in full care for the “other” and their world, shown in “finishing each other’s sentences:
Angel: “Look, this can’t…”
“Ever be anything.”

And Spuffy has never addressed that, the most fundamental problem. It isn’t about being a “good guy”—which Angel is. Or that Buffy herself is only “good,” as would define an appliance.

The question to ask is why Spuffy exists at all, if Buffy had any understanding whatsoever of “the problem” plaguing Buffy/Angel itself—in which she struggles between “the eternal now” and “life continues”. After all, THAT is all that is “going on..”

That question of human-vampire existing ONLY in the “now,” means it is OUTSIDE of time, thus, the rules of a material reality in ‘space-time,’ means there is no “becoming” Why? Because “one” IS light.

However, gutting the reality of the narrative asserts in making Spike “a good guy” AS suddenly is the answer to all problems doesn’t track: never mind he remains a vampire, with some context in the “rigidity of roles” to preserve conceptually longer finger nails, in “men carry” or in “who does the dishes” to define TIME in a “working relationship.”

And THAT, is why Spuffy hasn’t the maturity to FACE THE PROBLEM exhibited in the very earliest B/A. Suddenly, the only requirement to “Spuffy” is the material reality of “sex,” as sufficient answer to “existence,” to define the new material “reality” WITHIN TIME, yet NEVER MIND: this ALSO offers has no “fertility.” (No chance for change or transformation/transfiguration. Well, until the last scene with Spike “becoming” literal light and “becoming what I was” a reality: adult/human and that means HE IS LITERAL TOAST, as Buffy heads back INTO THE STRUGGLE with darkness. The “light” is what we ALWAYS see happen with B/A, until eternity confronts eternal death/change or “limitless/changing love” confronts “the eternal now.” (aka “the curse”).

Joss wants the rebellion of “the demon,” existing within the unchanging darkness to be “conscious” of the light, and thus, to act as the lance of light’s illumination within that darkness, as the operative for “change.” And Angelus proves that the demonic in the darkness, can only “mirror” or perceive itself: darkness aka “ evil.” So, how did Spike “grow” a different mirror—the love he felt so much for mom he turned her?

Spike’s posturing is not care for the other, (with Dru), nor is violence “transformed” into “love” of the “other,” when its shape ONLY destroys. Buffy was NOT made “better” in her change into a vampire and nihilsm. It was STOPPING her life with Spike that “made a change/difference But she hasn’t ever said, ‘Gee I love being me” ever again and for a reason that has NOTHING TO DO WITH SPIKE.

THAT is why “the miracle” of “fighting for a soul” doesn’t “track; ” just as “asking whatever “powers” or “self will” Spike used in I quote: “to be what I was” —a human with a soul or a vampire without a soul is all he has ever been—he cannot be a VAMPIRE with a soul, as HE NEVER HAD BEEN such.

The problem ALSO remains: BOTH the soul and the vampire are “OUTSIDE” of time: immortal and eternal.

And that “fits” as “mature” for Buffy? A human being who is most mortal and has proven it twice, as is demanded of narrative whose floor planks are “death/change” for “becoming” and IN TIME “normal?” SHE CAN REALLY DIE. So, death must be a metaphor THAT is what the actual narrative demands: the third death of Buffy Summers, and Spike and Angel, too, if one is “counting.”

Because the “soul” or the “constant light” is used within the narrative I first started with, the darkness is therefore “illuminated” (lessons learned); and THAT allows “change.”

All that self-hate, violence and violation of the self in nihilism illuminates NOTHING, and that is what the “darkness” does for you: Joss. Nothing. It is NOT the paradox of consuming/consumed “flame.” It is ANTI-LOVE AND ANTI-LIFE AND EVEN ANTI-DEATH. It is DEAD WITHIN ITS OWN EXISTENCE. And, yes, Life continues and will act upon the dead WITHIN TIME. Which you, Joss, grace yourself everyday in new work, new lives in children and in your own changes with Kai.

Over on ATS, they task Angel to explore the limits of “material sex” and always he is confronted with the “eternal now” and “always changing” and we see that STILL transforms him, in the UNION OF Buffy and Angel. Yet, his soul allows no light, whatsoever, some magical “how” from Buffy? He is suddenly in union with a demonic slayer, driving them both into one hell after another?

What Spuffy TRIED to do was show “Spike changed” and “Angel did not.” THAT is Angel’s curse: he doesn’t change. So how does Spike under the same rules? Because the rules are not the same in the NEW narrative.

It has nothing to do with “means and ends” vs. “chaos” or some version of “black and white” love “hoisted” upon Buffy and Angel, yet given all denial within Spuffy, just as the narrative “drops” the “curse” of Angel worthy of anything more than the appearance of Angelus as “sex on a stick” (that means “sex is evil” ESPECIALLY for the “female”—whose fertility IS “the problem.”: see Cordy, See Darla, See Fred…drop dead).

And now such “curse” is denied any investigation, as it is “hoisted” upon Buffy, the avatar, as the fulfillment of “woman,” in the “pregnant robot” and thus, all is well that ends well, for Spike to be the “natural” eternal mate—because HE is the subject of change, even as Xander/Dawn actually “become” more than avatars, as they (and Connor) are the actual mortal humans, in which “soulfulness” is still not the discussion, but TIME is.

And you should remain hopeful for twenty years and twenty more forever B/A because the narrative didn’t lie in what was its promise actually is and or even the implied promise for both protagonists would logically and even emotionally "become" because it really is that grand, that EPIC a celebration of love and therefore life itself.

I have no idea why others cheer “paper dolls” changing clothes, as if that is doing something forever.

a MOST happy Spring to you all
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Dark Avenger

Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is this not a problem with Spuffy? Is he not a vampire? Is she not a mortal? The question of mortal time (inside space-time) and eternal or immortal vampire time (Outside of time) is simply IGNORED for a different story altogether, a story having zero future, for it is NO DIFFERENT than B/A’s “problem” determined, as was STATED in “Angel” and within the very first season.

I think if Spuffy had ever been portrayed as a big, epic, forever love story the writers would have to address the perfect point you just made. But as Spuffy stands now, there haven't been any declarations of undying love or any talk about the future. Spuffy seems more about companionship, not being alone, and some sex thrown into the mix. It's as boring as Buffy/Riley and is hardly a grand epic love story. Remember when the writers were trying to sell a Angel/Cordy romance to the audience? Same vampire/human problem there. Plus the added threat of unleashing Angelus if he and Cordy were ever truly in love. Angel couldn't be with Buffy, but we were to think he could be with Cordy? Now that we've seen that whole story unfold we know the writers never intended to go completely down the C/A road and were probably just trying to drum up some angst when it looked like Angel was going to have to kill Cordy. I'm expecting the same kind of result for Spuffy. Joss likes to break couples up to keep things from getting boring...from my perspective Spuffy is already boring so I guess we'll see how long it lasts....but I don't worry about forever.

As you pointed out, the vampire/human problem was addressed from the get go with Buffy/Angel.... the promise of a solution to the problem was also given via the Shanshu.
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Dark Avenger

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 428

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Spuffy TRIED to do was show “Spike changed” and “Angel did not.” THAT is Angel’s curse: he doesn’t change. So how does Spike under the same rules? Because the rules are not the same in the NEW narrative.

I kinda love that the rules are not the same in the NEW narrative. Just like Buffy is the first, original, accept no substitute slayer, Angel is the first, original, accept no substitute souled vampire.

Where Buffy and Angel's love story is truly grand, epic and transcends everything, all other relationships are doomed as second choice best and about as exciting as watching paint dry.

Spike can't one up Angel because Joss wrote every great thing for Angel. Any attempt just comes off as what it is. A substitute for the real thing already proven in the narrative. Quite simply, there is nowhere for Spike and Buffy to go that Angel and Buffy haven't already gone or dreamed of going together. Joss played for keeps. Heart
More evolved= being the one of four not elevated enough to have the title.

Irony= see above.
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